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Author Topic: Nitrogen in Tires Back to Topics
sixpoints

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Message Posted: Mar 8, 2012 4:28:48 AM

With nitrogen tire inflation, improvements can be noted in a vehicle's handling, fuel efficiency and tire life through better tire pressure retention, improved fuel economy and cooler running tire temperatures.

What do you Think?
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ldheinz
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Dec 14, 2012 8:21:22 AM

The difference is small, but cost effective. I like the decreased maintenance of not having to top up the tires periodically. It also makes the tires last longer.
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Alien6500
All-Star Author London

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Message Posted: Dec 14, 2012 7:46:24 AM

it does keep pressure steady , i have in one car
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Banjoe
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Sep 18, 2012 6:27:19 PM

ldheinz - flying monkeys? Now you're getting into the groove. I'm quite impressed with your humor. Way to go.

Keep up the positive approach and you'll soon have a lot of Nitrogen converts cashing in on the benefits of this fill option.
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turbosaab
Champion Author Cleveland

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Message Posted: Sep 18, 2012 4:32:35 PM

ldheinz: "Just how are you determining that?"

That was the finding of Consumer Reports. Baldwin found even lower numbers.

ldheinz: "Tires differ from each other WAY too much to arrive at a detailed number like that."

That's why most studies use statistical analysis of large populations and report average values. Interestingly enough, they report them at that same number of significant digits.

ldheinz: "It's almost as suspect as your "calculations" showing permeation rate that's identical for all tires."

You're the only one who's claiming that my calculations represent all tires. I've always been up front about both the assumptions I made and the simplicity of my model. I assumed a single rubber component membrane. Nonetheless, the number I arrived at is within 5% of both CR's and Baldwin's measurements. Make fun of it if you'd like, but it only confirms your naivety about such matters.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Sep 18, 2012 12:34:47 PM

turbosaab - "That works out to ~0.11 psi per month. "

Just how are you determining that? Pulling it from the same place as the flying monkeys? Tires differ from each other WAY too much to arrive at a detailed number like that. It's almost as suspect as your "calculations" showing permeation rate that's identical for all tires.

(Was that "funny" enough for you, rick_evans?)
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Houckster
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Sep 18, 2012 12:13:33 PM

CTAK24 writes: why pay for nitro when the air we breathe is already mostly nitro?
____
Look at the posts. They explain the different viewpoints.
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turbosaab
Champion Author Cleveland

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Message Posted: Sep 18, 2012 8:37:50 AM

ldheinz: "....the first noticeable difference is typically that the tires maintain pressure much better."

Perhaps your definition or "much better" is different than mine. If 1.3 psi over a year is "much better", then you are correct. That is the difference between air and nitrogen inflation. That works out to ~0.11 psi per month. Is that "much better"? Is your pressure gauge that accurate?
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ldheinz
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Sep 18, 2012 8:29:38 AM

ultimate, the first noticeable difference is typically that the tires maintain pressure much better. Since the mileage difference is caused by maintaining tire pressure, it's typically 5% or so improvement. How closely do you monitor your gas mileage? It typically varies more than 5% per tank anyway due to different driving conditions, so you usually can't see it, but it's there.

rick_evans, the only "whimpering" I see is from you, making up insults to cover up for not having facts.
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Banjoe
Champion Author Winnipeg

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Message Posted: Sep 18, 2012 6:58:00 AM

Sock puppets and spray on Nitrogen......this is, by far, my most favorite topic of all time.

If a few molecules of Oxygen can cause such a ruckus, it's easy to see why buses and children are being blown up in the name of ideologies much broader than tire gases.

Then again, sock puppet did crack me up.
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ultimate
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Sep 18, 2012 6:49:09 AM

do not notice a difference.
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gasmask78
Champion Author Virginia

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Message Posted: Sep 18, 2012 12:32:10 AM

my nitro is free.
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ctak24
Rookie Author Connecticut

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2012 10:19:26 PM

why pay for nitro when the air we breathe is already mostly nitro?
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Houckster
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2012 7:55:11 PM

RICK_EVANS writes: @Houckster "Before you throw stones at IDHEINZ about not picking up on your 'joke' ",--

Awwww. Now idheinz is subcontracting to a personal sock puppet.
______
It seems that childish remarks are becoming your stock in trade. I'm not surprised.
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rick_evans
Champion Author Boston

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2012 4:25:32 PM

@Houckster "Before you throw stones at IDHEINZ about not picking up on your 'joke' ",--

Awwww. Now idheinz is subcontracting to a personal sock puppet.
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teebone1234
Champion Author San Francisco

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2012 4:20:14 PM

no
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Houckster
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2012 2:55:46 PM

RICK_EVANS: Before you throw stones at IDHEINZ about not picking up on your "joke", you should remember your response when I made a little joke. You whimpered a bit yourself.
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rick_evans
Champion Author Boston

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2012 2:34:31 PM

ldheinz ... whimpered -- "Are all your arguments based on made-up falsehoods?" in response to rick_evans -- "coming soon. Nitrogen enriched spray-on tire protector."

Only idheinz would have to whimper that question. Most everyone else knew to just laugh. Dude, grow a funny bone.


[Edited by: rick_evans at 9/17/2012 3:35:06 PM EST]
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GrumpyCat
Champion Author Alabama

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2012 12:39:22 PM

"Again, nitrogen only retains pressure 25% better than air."

25% of almost nothing is still almost nothing.

So in the time common cheap compressed air filled tire would lose 4 PSI, a trick expensive nitrogen filled tire will only lose 3 PSI. Go re-read the book on How To Lie With Statistics. The core concept is to cite percentages rather than hard numbers. "Wow! 25%! Thats fantastic!" vs "Only 1 PSI."

So what did the nitrogen proponents do to purge nasty old air from tires before filling with N2? Consumer Reports went to the effort to fill and deflate several times with N2 so as to have close to a pure N2 fill. Ever see an N2 tire shop fill and refill a tire to flush the air out? Neither have I.

The problem is not O2 inside the tire but UV outside the tire.
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pacecar68
Champion Author Oakland

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2012 10:39:18 AM

if you can get it for free, ok. don't pay for it. regular air is 78% nitrogen.
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turbosaab
Champion Author Cleveland

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2012 8:55:07 AM

ldheinz: "How can you state a bald-faced lie like that?Here's the Ford/Baldwin study again. Please reread it. They found significant tire aging from oxygen."

You have proven time and time again that you know nothing about science. Baldwin has shown only one thing; he could use accelerated aging to mimic the oxidation damage of tires that had worn out in the heat of Phoenix, AZ. He did not look for nor find that average passenger car tires suffered performance deficits during their useful lifetimes. He did conclude that nitrogen filled tires held their pressure 25% better than air filled tires. But, that is approximately the same as simple diffusion calculations would predict.

ldheinz: "And don't pretend that tires have zero oxidation until the end of the testing. They start oxidizing immediately."

I never said that. But, nobody has ever shown that the oxidation that occurs "immediately" degrades the performance or life of average passenger car tires. The lifetime and performance of average passenger car tires is governed by wear and road hazards.

ldheinz: "Consumer Reports admitted that their ad hoc testing was never intended to simulate normal driving usage, and even they admitted to advantages to nitrogen inflation. And NHTSA completely ignored the fact that the average driver does NOT check their tire pressure on a regular basis."

All this on the basis of a ~25% improvement in pressure retention. *ALL* tires, no matter what they are filled with, need tire pressure adjustments on at least a monthly basis to maintain proper pressure. That is a fact.

ldheinz: "In real world tests like the UC/Davis study, the average user can expect a 11% increase in tire life."

This was a paper study only. The "savings" was based on mitigation of underinflation *only*. They concluded that TPMS would provide an even better "savings". Again, nitrogen only retains pressure 25% better than air. Proper pressure maintenance is essential for both air and nitrogen.

ldheinz: "Other studies show much more, like the Clemson study at 31% increased life and the Transport Canada study at 86%."

Well, like I said previously, truck tire construction, composition, usage, practices are different from average passenger car tires. There are few lessons to be learned here that have practical value to us.
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DucatiRider
Rookie Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2012 8:29:29 AM

Snake oil. We used to sell nitrogen at the shop for $40 a fill-up, what a crock.

As long as you are using a good air-compressor (so the water is separated) there is no difference.

"Oh, but your tire will oxidize." -- I have yet to have a tire wear out as a result of time rather than miles. I rode a bike once that had 30 year old tires. The rubber was so hard that the tire just didn't wear anymore.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2012 8:07:34 AM

turbosaab - "Baldwin/Ford, Consumer Reports and the NHTSA have all shown conclusively that nitrogen inflation does nothing for the average motorist except extend pressure top-offs by an insignificant amount."

How can you state a bald-faced lie like that?Here's the Ford/Baldwin study again. Please reread it. They found significant tire aging from oxygen. And don't pretend that tires have zero oxidation until the end of the testing. They start oxidizing immediately. Consumer Reports admitted that their ad hoc testing was never intended to simulate normal driving usage, and even they admitted to advantages to nitrogen inflation. And NHTSA completely ignored the fact that the average driver does NOT check their tire pressure on a regular basis. In real world tests like the UC/Davis study, the average user can expect a 11% increase in tire life. Other studies show much more, like the Clemson study at 31% increased life and the Transport Canada study at 86%.
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JCClark2012
Champion Author New Hampshire

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Message Posted: Sep 17, 2012 2:53:27 AM

Guess I'll just keep air in the tires.
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turbosaab
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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2012 11:48:27 AM

ldheinz: "You're not so much raising nitrogen from 78% to 96% as you are lowering oxygen from 21% to 4%. It's about getting rid of oxygen and water vapor."

Baldwin/Ford, Consumer Reports and the NHTSA have all shown conclusively that nitrogen inflation does nothing for the average motorist except extend pressure top-offs by an insignificant amount. That includes handling, fuel economy, tire life, and any other life changing attributes. This is clear, well documented and should not be debated anymore. That is not to say that oxygen, even the amount in air doesn't cause deleterious oxidation. It does. But, it is not enough to diminish the performance or life of the average passenger car tire over its lifetime. Normal tires just simply wear out quicker than oxidation can cause noticeable damage. There are clearly exceptions; race car tires, long haul truck tires, tires driven in very high temperature environments, and low use tires such as small trailers and perhaps granny's tires that are only used every Sunday. I just wish that the nitrogen advocates would acknowledge those facts. Then we'd be done with this silly thread.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2012 9:35:48 AM

Tsunamiron, nitrogen itself does nothing. Nothing bad, that is. You're not so much raising nitrogen from 78% to 96% as you are lowering oxygen from 21% to 4%. It's about getting rid of oxygen and water vapor.

Many tire dealers, like Costco, are offering nitrogen free of charge because it lowers their warranty costs.
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SqrKpf
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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2012 9:14:16 AM

Dealer offered for 300$ but I declined...
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Houckster
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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2012 9:11:24 AM

TSUNAMIRON: Nitrogen is not a scam. A scam is when someone is duped into paying for something that provides no benefit. Pure nitrogen inflation does have benefits. Maybe those benefits don't are not worthwhile to everyone but they are to me and I consider the money I spent very worthwhile.

Air may be 78% nitrogen but that's irrelevant because the 22% that is oxygen is highly reactive to temperature and many substances deteriorate in its presence.

Bicycle tires give us a very real indication of what oxygen can do. Every year, I'll have 2-3 tubes fail due to pinhole leaks that develop. These leaks don't come from punctures but deterioration of the rubber and that's caused by oxygen. Those leaks can come at some very inopportune times so that's one reason I am seriously considering buying a nitrogen inflation kit.

I have defined those who will benefit most from nitrogen and those who will not. It might be worthwhile to go back over those posts for a well-rounded opinion.

[Edited by: Houckster at 9/16/2012 10:12:39 AM EST]
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Tsunamiron
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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2012 8:54:51 AM

It's all a scam. Regular air that you would normally put in your tires is already 78% nitrogen. Nitrogen gas is abundant and cheap. It's all around us. We are breathing it right now. Selling nitrogen gas is a great cheap way to make a fortune. It is just bottled air.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2012 8:40:25 AM

rick_evans - "coming soon. Nitrogen enriched spray-on tire protector. "

Are all your arguments based on made-up falsehoods?

lil_ebb - "car dealer offered this..is it worth it for 300 bucks? "

I paid $20. There is more info & a dealer finder here.
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rick_evans
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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2012 8:23:04 AM

"car dealer offered this..is it worth it for 300 bucks? "

Yes ... if you're the car dealer.
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lil_ebb
Sophomore Author Virginia Beach

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2012 7:10:01 AM

car dealer offered this..is it worth it for 300 bucks?
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terfar77
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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2012 6:24:30 AM

i agree
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rick_evans
Champion Author Boston

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Message Posted: Sep 16, 2012 6:22:34 AM

coming soon. Nitrogen enriched spray-on tire protector.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Sep 15, 2012 4:59:28 AM

The tires on my motorhome are 10 years old and have no appreciable dry rot for the same reason.
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Houckster
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Sep 15, 2012 4:49:16 AM

My tires are over 8 years old and don't have dryrot. I'll probably get another 25-30K out of them too. Every couple of months I coat them with a UV protectant.
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ldheinz
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Message Posted: Sep 15, 2012 12:13:27 AM

ricebike - "outside forces will dryrot your tires anyways in a matter of ~5 years."

That's not what the Ford/Baldwin study found. It found that the inflation gas controlled whether or not the tires deteriorated with time.

ricebike - "regular AIR still works for me & 99% of the driving public "

But nitrogen works better.
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ricebike
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Sep 15, 2012 12:09:53 AM

outside forces will dryrot your tires anyways in a matter of ~5 years.

regular AIR still works for me & 99% of the driving public
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ldheinz
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Sep 14, 2012 9:02:52 AM

Since it's oxygen that does the damage, I prefer lowering the oxygen by a factor of 5 or so.
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ricebike
Champion Author New Jersey

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Message Posted: Sep 14, 2012 8:36:49 AM

i'm ok with ~78% Nitrogen & the rest can be what AIR makes of it...
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ldheinz
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Sep 14, 2012 8:13:40 AM

For $5/tire I tried it years ago and found that it worked as advertised.
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Banjoe
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Message Posted: Sep 13, 2012 4:13:37 PM

suboo14 - brilliant. I don't think anyone has tried or even suggested that idea. Then again, this gang is too divided to even consider trying the enemies evil gas in their tires so they could make up their own mind.
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ldheinz
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Sep 13, 2012 3:13:32 PM

rick_evans - "The debate is whether one should waste one's money and time inflating their tires with dried nitrogen or just use AIR."

The debate is whether one wants to save money, improve handling and safety, and lower maintenance by inflating their tires with nitrogen or just use AIR.

rick_evans - "No one in their right mind would fill a tire with pure oxygen."

True. Ford does accelerated aging tests on tires by inflating with 50% oxygen, which ages tires at over 10x their normal rates (which should give you a clue). They only use 50% because 100% oxygen is highly explosive next to tire rubber. Note that the first private ship in space used tire rubber and hydrogen peroxide for fuel and oxidizer.

[Edited by: ldheinz at 9/13/2012 4:17:08 PM EST]
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rick_evans
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Message Posted: Sep 13, 2012 2:20:56 PM

@suboo14 wrote "just started with this sight and am amazed at the vitriol between users on the nitrogen vs. oxygen debate."

There's no debate between users of nitrogen vs. oxygen. The debate is whether one should waste one's money and time inflating their tires with dried nitrogen or just use AIR.

No one in their right mind would fill a tire with pure oxygen.

And what you call vitriol would be baby formula on the old USENET.

[Edited by: rick_evans at 9/13/2012 3:21:43 PM EST]
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ldheinz
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Sep 13, 2012 8:59:30 AM

Care to back that up with some evidence, Waterman66?
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Waterman66
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Message Posted: Sep 13, 2012 8:51:34 AM

HOAX.
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ldheinz
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Sep 13, 2012 8:05:37 AM

suboo14 - "just started with this sight and am amazed at the vitriol between users on the nitrogen vs. oxygen debate. "

So am I. It's just an inflation gas, after all. Much of the anger probably started by people making fun of scientific evidence because there is none the other way. I've never seen anything so conclusive, and there really shouldn't be any significant debate. But you're right that it really doesn't make any huge difference, just a small but significant one. I used air for decades, but since I started using nitrogen my tires stay inflated longer and hold up better. I've already done your test and have over 100,000 miles on nitrogen for verification.
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IAMCANADIAN73
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Sep 13, 2012 5:49:42 AM

No
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Houckster
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Sep 12, 2012 6:42:09 PM

SUBOO14 writes: just started with this sight and am amazed at the vitriol between users on the nitrogen vs. oxygen debate. Chemistry aside, try 2 tires nitrogen, 2 tires oxygen and record over a few months to a year. Why not?
_____
Why not? Because those of us who use nitrogen see no reason to subject our tires to a corrosive inflation gas that will vary much more with the temperature than nitrogen will while those who defend air will not spend one cent on such silliness as nitrogen in car tires.

That's why not.

[Edited by: Houckster at 9/12/2012 7:44:21 PM EST]
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suboo14
Rookie Author Denver

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Message Posted: Sep 9, 2012 1:00:45 PM

just started with this sight and am amazed at the vitriol between users on the nitrogen vs. oxygen debate. Chemistry aside, try 2 tires nitrogen, 2 tires oxygen and record over a few months to a year. Why not?
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turbosaab
Champion Author Cleveland

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Message Posted: Sep 6, 2012 9:42:32 PM

ldheinz: "So, turbosaab, obviously it's you who don't understand what they are saying, as the paper confirms what I've been saying."

6. Ford(Baldwin) and NHTSA have shown that a 50/50 mix of nitrogen and oxygen baked in a tire at 65C for 5 - 12 weeks (with O2 replaced as permeation occurs) will produce oxidation damage to a tire equal to 6 - 8 years in Phoenix, AZ or 8 - 12 years in the northern part of the Country. The NHTSA has reported that the average passenger car tire is replaced due to wear at 3.6 years. What does this mean? It means that oxygen does indeed cause damage to tires if given enough time and temperature. It also means that tires wear out long before oxidation becomes a significant factor. Average passenger car tire life is clearly independent of oxygen content inside the tire and the slow oxidation reaction that occurs.

You should take the time to study Baldwin's body of work (and not just the cherry-picked getnitrogen.org abbreviated studies like the one you cited). Amongst other things, Baldwin compared discarded tires found in Phoenix, AZ with oven aged tires that were filled with a 50/50 mixture of O2 and N2. He was *trying* to make them equivalent. Not surprisingly, they looked and behaved very similarly. That was purely an academic study, though. According to the NHTSA, the average passenger car tire is replaced after 3.6 years. What that indicates is that it takes longer for the O2 in air to significantly degrade the performance of tires than it takes for them to wear out. If you study Baldwin's body of work, you'll find that his research concludes many things that you don't want to hear. While he does find that nitrogen pressure is retained 25% better than air (even worse than CR and simple diffusion calculations!), he concludes that both gases need to be maintained on a regular basis. He further concludes that maintaining tire pressure alone (not nitrogen) leads to improvements in handling, rolling resistance and durability. Overall, Baldwin does recommend N2 use, but that is only based on that 25% pressure retention benefit.

Conclusion: Baldwin confirms everything I've been saying (and summarized in an earlier post) and does not confirm *anything* that you've been saying. Sorry, but those are the facts.
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