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Author Topic: Here Come the GM Hybrids!! Back to Topics
detfan

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2008 6:17:11 AM

GM, has steadily been improving and increasing its hybrid technology, first being used in buses back in 2002. Early automotive hybrids, on the Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu have been of the "mild" type -- not too much additional price, and not too much additional mileage. Playing catchup to the Prius and others, it now seems GM is getting in the game to dominate.

Enter the first two-stage hybrids, appropriately being introduced on GM's gas guzzling Tahoe and Yukon. The mileage ratings on these are 50% higher than their standard counterparts giving them the same city mileage as a 4 cyl. mid sized sedan. However, as the link below indicates, like my 2008 Malibu LTZ, the Tahoe tested is getting 25% better mileage than its EPA Ratings, getting 26.3 mpg!!

GM says they will be releasing new hybrids every three or four months, for the next few years. The 2009 Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra will have this same technology. The Saturn Vue will, also, and then also be available as a plug-in hybrid. Its going to be interesting watching the progress and gauging the success of each model.
Chevy Tahoe Two-Stage Hybrid Road Test
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Aug 11, 2014 3:22:07 PM

"Has anybody heard any more details about the engineering behind these predictions since last April?"

No, they are not releasing any information until the NAIAS in Detroit (1/12 - 1/25) where it will make it's debut.
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E-Squirrel
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Message Posted: Aug 11, 2014 2:52:34 PM

From time to time, I do a google search on "GM hybrid vehicle news" or just "hybrid vehicle news", to see what pops up. On GM, the most recent news article that I can find is dated this past April, discussing the revised Volt. Since this is GM's best hybrid offering since this thread started more than six years ago, I was hoping that by now, some "details" beyond the predictions of "5 seats", "a larger battery" and "lower price", or "targeting the Prius V or Ford C-Max" might be available.

Has anybody heard any more details about the engineering behind these predictions since last April?
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2014 1:44:40 PM

"Maybe a little la-la-la-de-dah in the key of G-minor?"

Whatever you like ;)

"They're going to have to build cars that are better than the competition."

Realizing this fact would require you to get out from behind your Truth About Cars website - I won't hold my breath.

You'd be pretty hard-pressed to find poor vehicles these days - the last decade has been a true renaissance for the industry across the board.

But haters gonna hate!
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2014 1:24:22 PM

Charlie_H: "It would be more effective for GM to actually build better cars... I'm not holding my breath for that."

Weaslespit: "No need - they already are."

I doubt that GM is clued in any better than you... For GM to build cars that are merely better than their old lumps is not good enough. They're going to have to build cars that are better than the competition. They should have figured this out decades ago but somehow have not.

Weaslespit (the chorus): " But haters gonna hate..."

Maybe a little la-la-la-de-dah in the key of G-minor?
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2014 11:41:05 AM

"It would be more effective for GM to actually build better cars... I'm not holding my breath for that."

No need - they already are. But haters gonna hate...
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2014 11:23:52 AM

Weaslespit: "Haters gonna hate... "

You should set that to music. It would make a great jingle. GM could use it in their advertising to try and shame satisfied Toyota owners into buying their under-achieving cars.

It would be more effective for GM to actually build better cars... I'm not holding my breath for that.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2014 10:46:46 AM

"No but you will waste time explaining that you won't explain it, which infers that you actually have an explanation and therefore you "win" without having to actually try to explain anything.

But nobody is buying what you're selling."

Haters gonna hate...
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2014 10:39:15 AM

Weaslespit: "Like I said, I won't waste my time trying to explain it to you... "

No but you will waste time explaining that you won't explain it, which infers that you actually have an explanation and therefore you "win" without having to actually try to explain anything.

But nobody is buying what you're selling.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2014 9:07:32 AM

"So negatively they became the #1 auto manufacturer in the world. Sounds like your thinking is backwards..."

Like I said, I won't waste my time trying to explain it to you...
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reb4
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Message Posted: Aug 1, 2014 2:55:46 PM

Volt had sales increase in July....

"The Leaf sold 3,019 units and the Volt crossed the 2,000 sales level for the first time in 2014, hitting 2,020 sales. With Tesla also announcing it is delivering around 2,500 Model S EVs a month (but that's globally, compared to the US-only numbers for the Volt and Leaf we're talking about here) and Ford's plug-in vehicles selling well, we are certainly in a golden moment for EV sales.



For the Volt, the 2,020 units sold represents a 13 percent increase from July of 2013 even thought year-to-date sales are down 8.7 percent this year compared to last year. Overall, total Chevrolet deliveries for July 2014 were up eight percent compared to 2013, so the Volt was a bright spot for the Bowtie brand last month."

[Edited by: reb4 at 8/1/2014 3:56:11 PM EST]
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2014 2:34:33 PM

Weaslespit: "GM [Malibu] gained 3mpg. Bottom-line."

And it's still behind the regular Camry and can't even begin to touch the Toyota hybrids. But they have beaten their last generation of under-achievers! Hallelujah!
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2014 12:23:17 PM

"and how it negatively affected Toyota already..."

So negatively they became the #1 auto manufacturer in the world. Sounds like your thinking is backwards...
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2014 12:21:59 PM

GM must be unique, because most businesses would consider putting out faulty product and losing market share as a bad thing...

I guess GM didn't learn much after going bankrupt...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2014 10:29:57 AM

"So as insinuated by WS, Not only are recalls a good thing for GM, but there loss of market share also is indicative of a healthy GM....."

Absolutely. But I won't waste my time explaining to you why this is, and how it negatively affected Toyota already...
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 31, 2014 7:46:33 AM

So as insinuated by WS, Not only are recalls a good thing for GM, but there loss of market share also is indicative of a healthy GM.....

Wow....

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 7/31/2014 8:49:51 AM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2014 11:42:28 PM

"Speaking of reality..."

GM gained 3mpg. Bottom-line.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2014 10:59:25 PM

Weaslespit: "When faced with reality, haters gonna hate... ;) "

Speaking of reality... The vehicle has improved highway fuel economy. That has nothing to do with the idle-stop system and it's more than a little likely that the improvements that lead to better highway fuel economy also help with city economy. GM's own claim is that the idle-stop system is worth 5% more in the city. Given that the system is not used under a variety of circumstances (engine too cold, A/C on, slowing but not stopping), the 5% claim is probably an exaggeration once the vehicle is out of the EPA test.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2014 10:23:02 PM

"We're proud of GM; they continually strive to beat their own under-achievers."

When faced with reality, haters gonna hate... ;)
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2014 4:41:23 PM

Weaslespit: "Yeah - never mind the additional 3mpg gain seen over the previous mild-hybrid..."

We're proud of GM; they continually strive to beat their own under-achievers.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2014 4:04:20 PM

"First Toyota, and now VW have out paced GM sales to be decared the 1st and 2nd largest Auto manufacturers in the world. Looks like all those GM recalls did not have such a positive effect after all..."

LOL - VW has been rising for years; I don't doubt they will eventually pass Toyota. To attribute it to GM's recalls is beyond inane.

Where is the trophy for gross global volume? I didn't see one at the Ren Cen either...
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2014 3:50:59 PM

"Actually it's hard to distinguish a joke from reality, when the joke hits so close to home to reality..."

So is this a joke or....
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2014 3:49:54 PM

"You should read the rest of the article. He has an objective explanation for his rating."

I did, and I too have driven both cars... Suffice it to say I didn't see the delta he was referring to (Honda Accord comparison). Both are relatively pedestrian with regards to acceleration.

I really like the ambient lighting, but of course aesthetics are completely personal.

'Since he includes careful descriptions of the vehicle's behavior which match my preconceived opinions. yes.'

I fixed it for you.

"The fact of the matter is, GM's hybrids have all been some obviously unsaleable combination of "too expensive" and "too ineffective."

This has been proven correct.

"Their idle-stop system continues this proud tradition with "too annoying."

Yeah - never mind the additional 3mpg gain seen over the previous mild-hybrid...

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 7/30/2014 4:50:25 PM EST]
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2014 3:10:01 PM

Weaslespit: "That was all I needed to read to know that the author wasn't going to like the car and was going to blast it as hard as possible..."

You should read the rest of the article. He has an objective explanation for his rating.

Weaslespit: "This is what you rely on for 'evidence'?"

Since he includes careful descriptions of the vehicle's behavior, yes.

The fact of the matter is, GM's hybrids have all been some obviously unsaleable combination of "too expensive" and "too ineffective." Their idle-stop system continues this proud tradition with "too annoying."
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2014 2:39:06 PM

First Toyota, and now VW have out paced GM sales to be decared the 1st and 2nd largest Auto manufacturers in the world. Looks like all those GM recalls did not have such a positive effect after all...
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2014 2:09:28 PM

Actually it's hard to distinguish a joke from reality, when the joke hits so close to home to reality...



[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 7/30/2014 3:12:57 PM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2014 1:16:57 PM

"What did the American people get for the fifty billion dollars they spent and the eleven billion they lost on the General Motors bailout? Well, they got stability, they got the retention of perhaps a million jobs, they avoided what might have been a last straw in what a posterity unblinded by the contemporaneous media’s Obama-as-messiah drumbeat will recognize as the greatest depression since the Great one, and they got the C7 Corvette.

All good things, if you ask me.

But they also got garbage like this."

That was all I needed to read to know that the author wasn't going to like the car and was going to blast it as hard as possible... This is what you rely on for 'evidence'?

LOL!
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2014 12:39:10 PM

GM has given up on the BAS system in the Malibu, replacing it with idle-stop technology. How is that working out?

Not so good.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2014 12:21:06 PM

"I guess I shouldn't have expected a GM zealot to have a sense of humor..."

Ah, I see now, so you weren't being serious - my apologies.... Kinda hard to discern when a hater is being genuine or making a joke when it all sounds the same ;)
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2014 8:25:39 AM

"I wouldn't expect a hater to see the common sense posted..."

I guess I shouldn't have expected a GM zealot to have a sense of humor...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 30, 2014 8:08:23 AM

"Speaking of keys.. i do like the keyless entry option on ... some cars..."

My spouse has one with this option as well. Kinda nice to just have to walk up and put your hand on the door handle and it opens. I like the push-button start too - no more worries with the ignition switch ;)
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reb4
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Message Posted: Jul 29, 2014 8:49:51 PM

Speaking of keys.. i do like the keyless entry option on ... some cars...

Really spoiled when I have to use my spouses car.. :-)

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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 29, 2014 6:42:40 PM

"Having extra keys on one's keychain is "abuse?""

Extra keys? No. See your own descriptions below in previous posts... ;)
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 29, 2014 6:41:35 PM

"LOL!!

I guess then that GM should continue to work very hard to produce defective automobiles so that they continue to increase the number of recalls they can issue... You know, since it's such a positive for them! ;)"

I wouldn't expect a hater to see the common sense posted... It doesn't serve their interests. ;)
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 29, 2014 9:03:32 AM

"The bottom line is that recalls not forced by the NHSTA are good is a positive for auto manufacturers."

LOL!!

I guess then that GM should continue to work very hard to produce defective automobiles so that they continue to increase the number of recalls they can issue... You know, since it's such a positive for them! ;)

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 7/29/2014 10:06:31 AM EST]
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Jul 29, 2014 8:47:46 AM

Weaslespit: "Unfortunately you can't design a car based on how people might abuse the product."

Having extra keys on one's keychain is "abuse?" Why have a keychain at all? People should just carry loose keys in their pockets and pocketbooks. That way there will be no "abusive" weight on the ignition switch. And how convenient that will be!
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Awing1
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Message Posted: Jul 29, 2014 8:45:52 AM

Not for me yet, if I chose to buy a hybrid now, I would take Toyota hybrid.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jul 29, 2014 8:39:57 AM

"I can expect to be hearing an excuse like that for decades to come, right?"

Only a true hater would take an admission of failure in the past based on the facts and label it as an 'excuse' for the future.

"The defining characteristic of GM was 'executive arrogance.'"

True.

"That was the problem and, very likely, remains so."

Unsubstantiated opinion.

"You should get out more, like GM's people, who also assume they represent how the world uses their cars."

Unfortunately you can't design a car based on how people might abuse the product. Ever read the manufacturer's warranty?

The ignition switch is not intended to be a storage shelf...

"Most of my kids' college classmates carried a pile of junk on a lanyard. Many women of my acquaintance keep many keys and fobs together in their pocketbooks. I shouldn't claim it's ubiquitous but it's common enough that a small survey of how people actually use their cars would reveal a significant fraction of the population puts a fair amount of weight on the ignition key."

Certainly common sense escapes many.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jul 29, 2014 8:34:38 AM

"No, it isn't. It has nothing whatever to do with capitalism. If if did, non-capitalist economies would have zero defect manufacturing. History does not demonstrate this."

You missed the point entirely. The price of Capitalism referenced was the influence it has on decisions to run substandard parts due to the dollar figured attached to make it right - not that it creates the defects in the first place.

What you have shown referencing the Yugo is simply that Socialism has similarities with Capitalism - neither eliminates greed.
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poetdog73
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Message Posted: Jul 29, 2014 3:06:30 AM

you can keep them!
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E-Squirrel
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Message Posted: Jul 29, 2014 2:16:40 AM

About manufacturing defects, Weaslespit proclaims:

"The price of Capitalism."

No, it isn't. It has nothing whatever to do with capitalism. If if did, non-capitalist economies would have zero defect manufacturing. History does not demonstrate this.

Quality control is a management decision. A manufacturer's products will have defects if they are willing to ship products with those defects. Whether it is Ford and Pinto gas tanks or GM and ignition switches, the problem isn't capitalism, its a management willing to ship defective products and the Yugo's production in a socialist economy wasn't different.
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Jul 28, 2014 4:38:11 PM

Weaslespit: "Absolutely - which GM had big problems with in the last decade. It is no surprise to me that cars such as the Cobalt (et al) are seeing these types of issues as the beancounters were firmly in control at the time."

I can expect to be hearing an excuse like that for decades to come, right?

The defining characteristic of GM was 'executive arrogance.' That was the problem and, very likely, remains so. No amount of bottom-up common sense, engineering or marketing input could override the arrogance of the entititled idiots at the top. And the chief "car guy," the complete antithesis of the beancounters, El Lutzbo, was one of the best examples of this. He was the driving force behind many of this century's biggest flops, all of GM's electro-motive efforts, all of which failed for entirely obvious reasons. But El Lutzbo would brook no argument to his vision.

Weaslespit: "Not from what I have seen... [does everyone have a pile of metal...]"

You should get out more, like GM's people, who also assume they represent how the world uses their cars.

Most of my kids' college classmates carried a pile of junk on a lanyard. Many women of my acquaintance keep many keys and fobs together in their pocketbooks. I shouldn't claim it's ubiquitous but it's common enough that a small survey of how people actually use their cars would reveal a significant fraction of the population puts a fair amount of weight on the ignition key.

In fact, while I keep car keys - and certain house keys - separate to minimize the junk in my pants pocket, I sometimes temporarily add pocket multi-tools to my keyring, if it's something I think I'm going to need that day, especially if keys and multi-tool will be in a backpack, rather than pants pocket.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jul 28, 2014 1:52:44 PM

"That's exactly the kind of process change I was talking about."

Absolutely - which GM had big problems with in the last decade. It is no surprise to me that cars such as the Cobalt (et al) are seeing these types of issues as the beancounters were firmly in control at the time.

"Toyota recalls are either ridiculously minor or based on a very small number of problem reports."

As is the case with most recalls for most OEM's.

"Yes, those unfortunate enough to own an affected GM vehicle have been cautioned to have nothing on the key ring beside the ignition key itself."

Which his an overreaction courtesy of the pending litigation.

"In fact, in our household, I'm the only person who does keep his car keys separate"

In our household, we have 2 or 3 keys on the keychain outside of the vehicle key and FOB. No Pepper spray, flashlight and God-knows-what-else attached.

"everybody else has a pile of metal that would rival Jacob Marley's burden."

Not from what I have seen...

"Toyota has a long history of proactive recalls..."

All OEM's do. You can also find the long list of ones that they hid or fought against.

"GM even knew about the ignition key problem and didn't do anything about it until about a dozen fatalities forced their hand."

Especially since most of those fatalities had nothing to do with the ignition switch...
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Jul 28, 2014 1:16:09 PM

Weaslespit: "The tolerance for running a design on a deviation for 'years' is the decision that needs to be revisited, rather than implementing the modified design, which was an added cost."

That's exactly the kind of process change I was talking about.

Weaslespit: "Sometimes large corporations need to be reminded of this (see Toyota, et al)."

Except for the pedal business (which was, in point of fact, initially masked by the floor mat/user problem), Toyota recalls are either ridiculously minor or based on a very small number of problem reports. Toyota had a potentially dangerous steering problem some years ago and attacked the problem after the first two reports and reengineered their initial solution after three more reports, none of which involved a fatality or, to the best of my knowledge, a serious accident. GM has been dinking around with a problem involving Malibu steering for years (since 2008) and, so far as I know, not actually fixed it, although it might finally be addressed in the current crop of recalls.

Weaslespit: "I am sure a risk analysis was performed based on the amount of effort it took to move the ignition switch (in this case) from 'run' to 'accessory' (or 'off') vs. the design specification and it was determined most people don't put X lbs of weight on their keychain so the risk was low (there is always 'some' amount of risk in any decision)."

Yes, those unfortunate enough to own an affected GM vehicle have been cautioned to have nothing on the key ring beside the ignition key itself. How realistic was this "risk analysis?" GM execs often drive corporate-supplied cars, which they return. I'd be willing to bet they never bother to put their CTS key on a ring with the rest of their keys because the car will be going away in 6 months, anyway. It's certainly reasonable to expect that the rest of us, who typically keep their cars for 3+ years, would keep our car keys similarly isolated.

In fact, in our household, I'm the only person who does keep his car keys separate, everybody else has a pile of metal that would rival Jacob Marley's burden.

Weaslespit: "The record number of recalls seen by Toyota since the SUA incident don't seem to have affected their sales..."

Toyota has a long history of proactive recalls, rather than GM's long history of reluctant and reactive recalls. The end result is that Toyota cars are valued for a high probability of long years of safe and trouble-free service. GM... not so much.

GM never recalled their plastic intake manifolds nor did anything about Dexcool. Ancient history? No, the people that bought those cars are still in their prime car-buying years. GM even knew about the ignition key problem and didn't do anything about it until about a dozen fatalities forced their hand.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Jul 28, 2014 12:41:31 PM

"Too many recalls effects the bottom line and negatively affects the consumers perception of the recalling companies product reliability..."

The record number of recalls seen by Toyota since the SUA incident don't seem to have affected their sales...

The bottom line is that recalls not forced by the NHSTA are good is a positive for auto manufacturers.

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 7/28/2014 1:41:53 PM EST]
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Jul 28, 2014 11:43:16 AM

"Recalls are good thing - they take care of the end consumer."

Too many recalls effects the bottom line and negatively affects the consumers perception of the recalling companies product reliability...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 28, 2014 11:05:07 AM

"Generally, yes. GM is probably doing the right thing, here, but going forward, they must redevelop their internal processes and improve product development and manufacturing so as to avoid reduce the number of future recalls."

I am sure a risk analysis was performed based on the amount of effort it took to move the ignition switch (in this case) from 'run' to 'accessory' (or 'off') vs. the design specification and it was determined most people don't put X lbs of weight on their keychain so the risk was low (there is always 'some' amount of risk in any decision).

The tolerance for running a design on a deviation for 'years' is the decision that needs to be revisited, rather than implementing the modified design, which was an added cost. Sometimes large corporations need to be reminded of this (see Toyota, et al).

The price of Capitalism.
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Jul 28, 2014 10:55:22 AM

Weaslespit: "Recalls are good thing - they take care of the end consumer."

Generally, yes. GM is probably doing the right thing, here, but going forward, they must redevelop their internal processes and improve product development and manufacturing so as to avoid reduce the number of future recalls.

Recall expense has heavily affected profits for the 2nd quarter in a row and is hurting the stock price. In the short run, they're doing the right thing but they can't keep on doing business like this forever.

GM must become an organization where the grunts can say to management, "No, that won't work," "this needs more time," or "that's a bad idea."
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Jul 28, 2014 10:03:31 AM

"There they go... recalls"

Recalls are good thing - they take care of the end consumer.
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MeTaBall
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Message Posted: Jul 25, 2014 4:07:43 PM

There they go... recalls
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

Posts:15,324
Points:515,985
Joined:Sep 2008
Message Posted: Jul 18, 2014 1:03:31 PM

"Your being to hard on yourself weas... Lighten up..."

Lol, I thought poking fun at his spelling of Cincy was an attempt at lightening up - I'll put a smiley-face on it next time :)
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