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Author Topic: Here Come the GM Hybrids!! Back to Topics
detfan
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Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2008 6:17:11 AM

GM, has steadily been improving and increasing its hybrid technology, first being used in buses back in 2002. Early automotive hybrids, on the Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu have been of the "mild" type -- not too much additional price, and not too much additional mileage. Playing catchup to the Prius and others, it now seems GM is getting in the game to dominate.

Enter the first two-stage hybrids, appropriately being introduced on GM's gas guzzling Tahoe and Yukon. The mileage ratings on these are 50% higher than their standard counterparts giving them the same city mileage as a 4 cyl. mid sized sedan. However, as the link below indicates, like my 2008 Malibu LTZ, the Tahoe tested is getting 25% better mileage than its EPA Ratings, getting 26.3 mpg!!

GM says they will be releasing new hybrids every three or four months, for the next few years. The 2009 Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra will have this same technology. The Saturn Vue will, also, and then also be available as a plug-in hybrid. Its going to be interesting watching the progress and gauging the success of each model.
Chevy Tahoe Two-Stage Hybrid Road Test
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detfan
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Mar 28, 2015 9:02:41 AM

It is over a year before the 2016 Chevy Malibu Voltec Hybrid is launched, but it is interesting to see the take rate of the current leaders in midsized hybrid sedans currently.

The Ford Fusion Hybrid has the highest take rate at 11.54% of total Fusion sales. The Toyota Camry has a 10.37% take rate, and, surprisingly, the Honda Accord, which has the best mileage ratings has only a 4.43% take rate.

Of course the current Malibu with its BAS, or e-assist system has only a 0.54% take rate.

GM has communicated to suppliers to prepare for at least a 25%, and up to 50% increase in demand for 2016 Malibu parts due to increased demand for the Malibu. Let's just take the 25% which appears doable if the Malibu is all that has been reported. That would put Malibu sales at 236,000, still 70,000 units behind the Ford Fusion.

If the Malibu hybrid rate is at the Accord rate, 10,450 Hybrids will sell. If the Malibu Hybrid gets a 10% take rate, then 23,600 Malibu Hybrids will sell.

Toyota Camry Hybrid sales were 39,515 in 2014. Ford Fusion Hybrid sales were 35,405, and the Honda Accord Hybrid sales were 13,977.

I would think that the 2016 Malibu Hybrid, given the size of the Chevy dealer network, would exceed the Accord take rate, but time will tell if it can get to a 1 in 10 take rate. Of course general acceptance of the 2016 Chevy Malibu by the car buying public will affect the Hybrid sales.

Of course the Chevy Impala, and Buick LaCrosse seem to be future candidates for Voltec Hybrid technology, as they both offer e-assist on current models.
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 2:03:41 PM

"Need more be said?"

Yes - proof of detfan's " close relationship with the person or organization"

Just more lies from shock. Status quo remains intact.
Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 1:20:56 PM

"I cannot believe that there are some here that do not have the correct meaning of a shill"

I've posted definitions of shill, along with links. No mention of being paid...

" Denial for convenience is ugly and delusional."

So... Stop living in denial...

"A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization."

Need more be said?

detfan
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 12:43:41 PM

I cannot believe that there are some here that do not have the correct meaning of a shill. It is crazy!! Denial for convenience is ugly and delusional.

Once again, here is an example form Oxford Dictionary, arguably the most respected dictionary on the planet:

A person who pretends to give an impartial endorsement of something in which they themselves have an interest:
"a megamillionaire who makes more money as a shill for corporate products than he does for playing basketball"

If you are in the camp that thinks the Merriam-Webster Dictionary is the best, here is its definition:

"to talk about or describe someone or something in a favorable way because you are being paid to do it"

For those that like Wikipedia as a source, they say:

A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization.

"Shill" typically refers to someone who purposely gives onlookers the impression that they are an enthusiastic independent customer of a seller (or marketer of ideas) for whom they are secretly working. The person or group who hires the shill is using crowd psychology to encourage other onlookers or audience members to purchase the goods or services (or accept the ideas being marketed). Shills are often employed by professional marketing campaigns. "Plant" and "stooge" more commonly refer to any person who is secretly in league with another person or organization while pretending to be neutral or actually a part of the organization he is planted in, such as a magician's audience, a political party, or an intelligence organization"

So please, do not refer to me as a shill, because that denotes a derogatory description of me, which would be a personal attack on my character, which GB does not allow...

Thank you.

Can't wait to see what the 2016 Malibu looks like next week!
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 11:29:37 AM

"Yet another infantile remark...

Why am I not surprised?"

*Burp*
Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 10:52:44 AM

Yet another infantile remark...

Why am I not surprised?

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 3/27/2015 11:54:16 AM EST]
Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 9:44:14 AM

"A shill doesn't have to be payed in order to be a shill..."

*Burp*
Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 9:34:33 AM

A shill doesn't have to be payed in order to be a shill...
detfan
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 9:30:22 AM

Plea stop denigrating posters by using the incorrect but meant to be derogatory term "shill". There are no shills here. Unless somebody admits that they are being paid by Toyota, GM, or any other manufacturer.

The correct term would be "enthusiast" but that doesn't go to your derogatory intent.
----

The Chevy EN-V goes into a pilot project this month in China. This is the next step of the two seat electric urban cars progress as it moves to production later.

[Edited by: detfan at 3/27/2015 10:30:52 AM EST]
Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Mar 27, 2015 8:38:40 AM

"You are right. There is no reasoning with a GM shill..."

And yet another deflection.
H_Charlie
Rookie Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2015 5:59:31 PM

E-Squirrel: "WWII era submarines used both diesel and electric motor-battery systems, but even they had differences. Although Germany developed several different sub designs, the most numerous type, the VIIC used a pair of combined motor generators and diesel engines combined with a planetary gear box that let either drive the propellers."

I didn't know about the arrangement of the German boats but I was familiar with the general setup of a USNA fleet sub. The critical thing there, I think, wasn't fuel economy but flexibility, redundancy and the ability to move and fight if one or more components were disabled.

What you say about the fuel cell vehicles is also true. In fact, I'm surprised that the Mirai doesn't have a bigger battery (it's about the same size as the Prius', I believe). The fuel cell stack *must* be expensive but they've put 100KW of that in there. I would have thought a bigger battery and a smaller stack would lead to a more economical but equally capable car. Well, Toyota probably knows better than I what will really work.
Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2015 4:04:05 PM

You are right. There is no reasoning with a GM shill...
Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2015 3:59:47 PM

"Unfortunately you are the one who is in error, since the Malibu hybrid is being developed years behind it's competitors."

Which, again, has nothing to do with your '20-year' reference. Why do you keep doubling down on this inane talking point?
E-Squirrel
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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2015 3:48:39 PM

H_Charlie points out:

"HSD is the "best" only in so far as Toyota has been able to make it work and sell it profitably in pretty good volume."

Toyota spent a long time developing their system before bringing here to the US. When they began, they were attempting to minimize engine exhaust pollutant levels, not maximize fuel economy, but do seem to have found a "sweet spot" in design, as proven by the fuel economy and sales.

Other vehicles besides cars have been built in hybrid designs as well. WWII era submarines used both diesel and electric motor-battery systems, but even they had differences. Although Germany developed several different sub designs, the most numerous type, the VIIC used a pair of combined motor generators and diesel engines combined with a planetary gear box that let either drive the propellers. Later development added a separate, smaller electric motor with a belt drive, for long endurance, slow underwater propulsion.

In contrast, the US "fleet" design used separate motors and generators and had the diesel engines drive only generators. It would probably be a mistake to conclude from the war's outcome which was the better design was better. (Score: Germany lost 750 submarines in the war; US lost 52).

Fuel cell vehicles are inherently "hybrid" designs in nature also because fuel cells don't gracefully handle changes in output, nor do they deliver full output until they have reached optimum temperature.
Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2015 3:46:45 PM

"And it was wrong, as I corrected for you"

Unfortunately you are the one who is in error, since the Malibu hybrid is being developed years behind it's competitors.

Your denying it doesn't change that fact...

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 3/26/2015 4:46:53 PM EST]
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2015 3:38:04 PM

"My point was made."

And it was wrong, as I corrected for you.
Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2015 3:35:47 PM

"and not particularly aerodynamic."

Only to those who don't understand aerodynamics and continue to display this lack of understanding...
E-Squirrel
Champion Author Orange County

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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2015 3:31:57 PM

detfan posits:

"the Chevy Volt is the only PHEV that doesn't use the generator to move the wheels in almost all driving situations."

Well, actually, that is not true, although many extant hybrid designs do. THe world's first gasoline-electric hybrid in 1900 didn't connect the gasoline engine to the drive wheels, nor does the current BMW i3.

Its unclear what type of hybrid may eventually dominate at this stage, but I would like to see as many different types tried as possible.

If I count correctly, the Voltec drivetrain is the third "different" type of hybrid design that GM has put into production.
H_Charlie
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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2015 12:23:34 PM

Shock: "That's what makes it so much less efficient then those PHEV's that do..."

Oh, no, that's just one of the things that makes it less efficient. It's also heavy and not particularly aerodynamic.
Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2015 10:51:03 AM

"Let it be known that, so far, the Chevy Volt is the only PHEV that doesn't use the generator to move the wheels in almost all driving situations."

That's what makes it so much less efficient then those PHEV's that do...
Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2015 10:50:26 AM

"try to address the point that was made - if you can?"

My point was made.

GM MAY be coming out with a decent hybrid, well after the competition...
H_Charlie
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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2015 10:47:20 AM

E-Squirrel: "I for one, would like to see several different designs tried; without innovation, a "best" design cannot be found."

True. HSD is the "best" only in so far as Toyota has been able to make it work and sell it profitably in pretty good volume.

The new Honda system looks promising and, so far as I know, tests well but Honda hasn't been willing to ship and sell a lot of product to date. I don't know if there's some inherent problem with it or not.

It is widely thought that serial hybrids have an Achilles heel... the dual conversion of the engine's kinetic energy to electrical and then back to kinetic is inherently lossy and robs the car of fuel economy when in extended-range mode. The BMW i3 is a small, light car but it's a pure serial hybrid and gets mid-30's for range-extended mileage. That's pretty poor.

It is widely thought that tuning an engine for a specific RPM as optimal output and running it only at that load makes up for the conversion inefficiency but that's not the case. The difference in efficiency across a range of loads isn't that great.

Until we see some improvements in conversion and power electronics efficiency, clutching a faux Atkinson engine through to the wheels is going to make sense for a certain portion of extended-range travel, probably most.

Implementing the faux Atkinson cycle isn't particularly expensive, on a per-unit cost manufacturing basis. However, some of it might be tied up in patents and there might be licensing fees. In addition to Toyota, Ford uses faux Atkinson, I think Mazda does and I believe Honda does, too. There's certainly no insurmountable hurdle here for GM or any other manufacturer.
Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2015 8:50:55 AM

"Actually, you are making an inaccurate inference, much like you have done in other topics..."

Now you are trying to deflect your mistake onto one of my own.

Sorry, but that doesn't hold any water. Try again - this time try to address the point that was made - if you can?
detfan
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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2015 8:37:24 AM

E-Squirrel. Good post! I think the controversy with whether GM's description of the Chevy Volt as an EREV (Extended Range Electric Vehicle) was that it was discovered that if you drive over 75 MPH, there could be additional help from the generator to move the wheels. So, GM is correct, if everyone drives their Volt at most posted speed limits. I believe, though, that there are some rural highways that have posted speed limits higher than 70 MPH that a Volt could legally drive and have the generator help in moving the wheels, thus technically making the Volt a PHEV in those instances.

Let it be known that, so far, the Chevy Volt is the only PHEV that doesn't use the generator to move the wheels in almost all driving situations.
Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Mar 26, 2015 7:49:13 AM

"Still ignoring the point - typical."

Actually, you are making an inaccurate inference, much like you have done in other topics...
E-Squirrel
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2015 6:37:59 PM

Back in early March, I pointed out that other companies had begun to produce hybrid models based upon GM products, because GM has been so slow to enter this market with a competitive design. Since the Volt is GM's most successful "hybrid" design to date (despite that they insist on calling it an "electric car"), its only reasonable that they would try to start with Volt's drivetrain, especially given the investment that they have made in the car, including its loss-leader costs.

Toyota's HSD - (faux) Attinkson cycle design has proven to be remarkably efficient and popular, but it isn't the only hybrid design on the market. There are several others including Honda's and BMW's currently on the market. No doubt a "best practices" design will eventually emerge and become common.

GM has been shockingly slow to field a competitive design in this category, but given GM's size and position world-wide in cars, it it incumbent that they MUST at some point produce one.

I for one, would like to see several different designs tried; without innovation, a "best" design cannot be found. Perhaps this thread will eventually have more to discuss than just the possible merits of some "future" model.

[Edited by: E-Squirrel at 3/25/2015 7:38:44 PM EST]
Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2015 5:09:14 PM

"For one, the Prius was not the only hybrid car in the early days of the hybrid, so the one "incorrectly inferring" would be you..."

Still ignoring the point - typical.
Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2015 5:08:15 PM

"Well, I wasn't going to do that but I was moved by your complaint that no one would contribute to the "Prius is the Greatest" thread, so I created another ID."

You created 2 new ID's, which the mods don't take kindly too (creating a forced ignore end-around).

You are certainly making my point. Your instance on posting in only detfan's threads shows your addiction quite clearly.
H_Charlie
Rookie Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2015 3:51:20 PM

Weaslespit: "Or was the Fusion and Camry hybrid available in 1995?"

The market for hybrids is broader than "sedan-like." Hybrid competition began in 1997 with, as it happens, a little sedan. GM, Ford and Chrysler were paid to develop advanced-tech super-miserly vehicles in the mid-90's, too, so it's not like they never saw this coming.
H_Charlie
Rookie Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2015 3:47:22 PM

Weaslespit: "I see charlie is so desperate to disparage the Volt that he has resorted to creating additional screen names just to post on detfan's topic(s)."

Well, I wasn't going to do that but I was moved by your complaint that no one would contribute to the "Prius is the Greatest" thread, so I created another ID.

It's still unclear why "charlie_h" can't post in detfan's threads. It's not something I requested. It's not like I go whining to the mods to lock people out of threads I create.
H_Charlie
Rookie Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2015 3:44:25 PM

detfan: "In GM's press release, they state that the 2016 Chevy Malibu Hybrid will exceed 45 miles combined."

"will"

Yeah. Right. When it's actually available for sale, then we'll see. In the interim, GM's still flogging their BAS vehicles and taking welfare payments to move the Volt.

While we wait, of course, we shall persuade GM, Honda, etc, to stand still, so that GM has a better chance of beating them.

You've promised a lot of "DOMINATION!!!" in advanced tech vehicles and, so far, GM has entirely failed to back you up with product. On Feb 21, 2008, the industry leader was Toyota. Seven years later, that has not changed.
Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2015 2:23:48 PM

>>>"20 years after the competition"<<<

"Was this explanation not clear;

Always running back to the Prius, incorrectly inferring that every other OEM has had a hybrid out for the past 20 years..."

For one, the Prius was not the only hybrid car in the early days of the hybrid, so the one "incorrectly inferring" would be you...

OOOPS...



[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 3/25/2015 3:28:04 PM EST]
Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2015 2:20:51 PM

I see charlie is so desperate to disparage the Volt that he has resorted to creating additional screen names just to post on detfan's topic(s).

Starting his own thread (or simply participating in the "Is the Volt Dead" thread) was apparently not enough - he needs to rub his opinion (under the guise of fact) in the faces of those who enjoy GM's products over-and-over-and-over-and-over 'that' badly.

Seek help. Immediately.

Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2015 2:15:14 PM

"Shock implied no such thing."

He did. Or was the Fusion and Camry hybrid available in 1995?

Take your time before you answer that one...
Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2015 2:13:51 PM

"Were did I mention the Prius?"

Here;

"20 years after the competition"

Was this explanation not clear;

"Always running back to the Prius, incorrectly inferring that every other OEM has had a hybrid out for the past 20 years..."

H_Charlie
Rookie Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2015 1:51:24 PM

detfan: "So, with the 2016 Chevy Malibu Hybrid launching in early 2016..."

the triumphal honking of the Detroit FanBois begins! Just a wee bit early.

Apparently, "count your chickens" is wasted advice.

The number 1 selling hybrid, far and away, is *not* a sedan. Its sales dwarf all the other hybrids. The #2, #5, #6 and #8 hybrids are also not sedans. Most of the sales in the top 10 hybrids go to "not sedans." The best selling hybrids that *is* a sedan, is associated with the strongest hybrid brand.

If I was going to build a hybrid that would actually sell (in order to, say, amortize the development of my hybrid system across more units because all it has generated to date is losses), I don't think I'd build a sedan.

But that would put them in direct, head-to-head competition with the Prius and GM knows it would lose.
Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2015 1:21:02 PM

"This barge isn't even going to be out for another year and detfan's already anticipating the win and is solidly into pre-release boast phase."

I guess he's yet to learn the lesson dealt to him when he first started this topic..

Don't count your chickens...
Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2015 1:19:26 PM

"Always running back to the Prius"

Were did I mention the Prius?
detfan
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2015 1:17:00 PM

So, with the 2016 Chevy Malibu Hybrid launching in early 2016, let's take a look at the top three hybrid sellers, plus the Honda Accord Hybrid, that are attached to a standard mid sized sedan ICE model.

The best seller of these is the Toyota Camry Hybrid, with 2014 sales of 39,515. The 2015 model MSRP is $26,790, and mileage is 43/39(41).

Coming in second is the Ford Fusion Hybrid, with 2014 sales of 35,405. The 2015 model MSRP is $26,890, and mileage is 44/41(42).

Third is the Hyundai Sonata Hybrid, with 2014 sales of 21,052. The 2015 model MSRP is $26,000, and mileage is 36/40(38)

The Honda Accord Hybrid in 2014 sold 13,977. The 2015 model MSRP is $29,305, and mileage is 50/45(47).

In GM's press release, they state that the 2016 Chevy Malibu Hybrid will exceed 45 miles combined. This handily beats the Camry, Fusion, and Sonata, and is within 1 mile of Honda. Since GM didn't mention that they would beat the Honda mileage, then 46 should be assumed for the Malibu.

Anything less than $27,500 for the Malibu could be fine, if trim levels meet or exceed the competition. It would certainly be nice to see $26,995, but by exceeding most of the competition by 10% or so, the Malibu could command a little higher price. This is especially true, if all of the positive reviews on the 2016 Chevy Malibu standard version are accurate.
H_Charlie
Rookie Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2015 11:51:45 AM

Weaslespit: "Pricing will be important."

This is true. Of course, they could price it at a loss to make it price-competitive. If they do - and if they're smart about it - they won't admit it.

In the case of the Volt, El Lutzbo bragged that they'd lose money on it. Well, it's nice to know he got one thing right in his career at GM.
Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2015 10:50:21 AM

"If you mean by winner, 20 years after the competition, then ya, sure..."

Always running back to the Prius, incorrectly inferring that every other OEM has had a hybrid out for the past 20 years...

SMH
Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2015 10:49:38 AM

"Is it possible that GM FINALLY is entering the traditional hybrid market with a winner?"

Pricing will be important.
Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2015 10:17:26 AM

If you mean by winner, 20 years after the competition, then ya, sure...
detfan
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Mar 25, 2015 10:14:17 AM

Is it possible that GM FINALLY is entering the traditional hybrid market with a winner?

2016 Chevy Malibu Hybrid

From the Detroit News:

The new midsize hybrid Malibu will compete with hybrid versions of the Ford Fusion, Toyota Camry and Hyundai Sonata — all of which GM said have lower combined fuel economy ratings than what the Malibu hybrid will have. The car also will compete with the Honda Accord Hybrid, which is rated at 47 mpg combined.

[Edited by: detfan at 3/25/2015 11:17:53 AM EST]
Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Mar 10, 2015 9:25:44 AM

"Why do you keep avoiding the obvious"

Because I'm not. It's obvious that Volts are far and few between in Chicago and the surrounding area. Your map simply illustrates that point...

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 3/10/2015 10:26:07 AM EST]
Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Mar 10, 2015 8:36:16 AM

"It means there are not very many Volts in Chicago."

Why do you keep avoiding the obvious? Oh, because it utterly disproves your assertion...

MY bad.

GasMiser718
Champion Author Detroit

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Message Posted: Mar 9, 2015 10:33:37 PM

Not for me.
Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Mar 9, 2015 8:47:00 AM

It means there are not very many Volts in Chicago. Not surprising considering the miniscule number that have been sold...
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Mar 9, 2015 8:38:50 AM

"Your map shows very well that the Volt is very uncommon in the Chicago area."

Please tell me what the second comment in this sentence means to you;

"Yeah, there's hardly any Volts in Chicago (and these are just the ones giving their info for stat tracking...)"

I bet you won't, since it loses you your argument.
Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

Posts:19,293
Points:622,905
Joined:Sep 2008
Message Posted: Mar 9, 2015 8:30:12 AM

""So sad that haters gotta hate."

LOL, WeasleSpit, maybe you could go to counseling for the issue..."

Feel free to post on the topic, rather than attacking a poster, since you can't refute the legitimate point that was made.

Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

Posts:24,947
Points:2,988,515
Joined:Apr 2006
Message Posted: Mar 9, 2015 8:24:45 AM

"And yet another in denial of the facts;"

There is no denial of facts. Your map shows very well that the Volt is very uncommon in the Chicago area. There's one located every hundred or two square miles. No wonder I never see one...
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