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Author Topic: Here Come the GM Hybrids!! Back to Topics
detfan

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2008 6:17:11 AM

GM, has steadily been improving and increasing its hybrid technology, first being used in buses back in 2002. Early automotive hybrids, on the Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu have been of the "mild" type -- not too much additional price, and not too much additional mileage. Playing catchup to the Prius and others, it now seems GM is getting in the game to dominate.

Enter the first two-stage hybrids, appropriately being introduced on GM's gas guzzling Tahoe and Yukon. The mileage ratings on these are 50% higher than their standard counterparts giving them the same city mileage as a 4 cyl. mid sized sedan. However, as the link below indicates, like my 2008 Malibu LTZ, the Tahoe tested is getting 25% better mileage than its EPA Ratings, getting 26.3 mpg!!

GM says they will be releasing new hybrids every three or four months, for the next few years. The 2009 Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra will have this same technology. The Saturn Vue will, also, and then also be available as a plug-in hybrid. Its going to be interesting watching the progress and gauging the success of each model.
Chevy Tahoe Two-Stage Hybrid Road Test
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Nov 23, 2014 11:01:34 AM

Weaslespit: "One of these days you will have to let me borrow that crystal ball so I can pick some lottery numbers... "

I didn't need a crystal ball. It was *obvious* that they wouldn't sell.

The Tahoe was extremely expensive and aimed at people who do not care about fuel economy. If they did care about fuel economy, they wouldn't buy Tahoes. Or, if they did suddenly get religion, they could downsize to a Traverse, and get similar fuel economy to the Tahoe hybrid for $25K less.

The Malibu hybrid was very nearly the same price as the Camry hybrid but offered combined fuel economy of about 11mpg less. Hybrids are all about the numbers. detfan made a big deal about the "1970's AM radio stack" in the Camry vs the allegedly up-optioned Malibu hybrid but, as was obvious to anybody who has thought about the hybrid market at all, the numbers were what mattered and the Malibu hybrid was a total failure.

I've actually found two people who bought Malibu hybrids. They regretted it. Deeply regretted it. Both said, "Should have bought a Prius."

No crystal ball... just awareness of the market and a willingness to think about the products and face reality.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 7:03:33 PM

Interesting post squirrel.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 7:00:48 PM

"When it was posted, Feb 21 2008 6:17:11 AM, it was obvious to anybody that cared to think about it, that both of GM's hybrid products, the truck-based two-mode and the Epsilon-based BAS, were doomed to failure..."

One of these days you will have to let me borrow that crystal ball so I can pick some lottery numbers...
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E-Squirrel
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 6:25:50 PM

Tucsonhomes enthuses:

"I'm waiting for hydrogen"

Hydrogen fuel cell technologies is one of the most over promised technologies out there. I am sure that all manufacturers will eventually be selling these, but not in any quantity for a long while. The gating problem is the fuel. You essentially need the same technology as CNG, but much more sophisticated and expensive. CNG vehicles have been available, with mature technology for more than fifty years, but the lack of the fueling infrastructure keeps them in fleets of short-range vehicles with a central, private fueling point.

Beside all of the challenges that CNG presents, hydrogen suffers from the fact that unlike natural gas, its just a fuel, not an energy source. Moreover, there is not an existing utility pipe network. Finally, hydrogen escapes easily and under pressure tends to infiltrate metal itself, making it brittle.

Hydrogen fuel cells may be the future, but not the near one. Toyota recently announced a model, and Honda actually shipped a few a couple of years ago, but has been silent since. Perhaps a new "Here come the Toyota hydrogen models" thread is called for. (With apologies to detfan who clearly expected GM's vehicles to become more popular back in 2008).
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Tucsonhomes
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 4:47:43 PM

I'm waiting for hydrogen
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 4:03:13 PM

Weaslespit: "It was relevant when it was posted... Unfortunately for GM, they failed."

When it was posted, Feb 21 2008 6:17:11 AM, it was obvious to anybody that cared to think about it, that both of GM's hybrid products, the truck-based two-mode and the Epsilon-based BAS, were doomed to failure.

detfan, in his zeal to promote GM and trash the Japanese, completely overlooked the glaring flaws in the product, and posted a lot of nonsense, which went on to do for years. To be perfectly fair, GM had to overlook the glaring flaws, too.

He's still coming back to the Volt thread with nonsense comparisons and completely ignoring facts on the ground; anything to get GM the win. It's more than a touch annoying.

Well, he doesn't get to give GM the win. GM has to earn it and the principal way they must earn it is in profits. When they have an advanced-tech car or truck that they can sell in decent quantity, without taxpayer assistance, profitably, I'll be impressed.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 1:43:37 PM

"... this thread exists at all. detfan's been shilling for GM for years."

It was relevant when it was posted... Unfortunately for GM, they failed.

Even detfan has admitted as much.
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 1:25:11 PM

Weaslespit: "But because of the fanboy..."

... this thread exists at all. detfan's been shilling for GM for years.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 1:13:46 PM

"Toyota, which we expected to be crushed under the wheels of GM's mighty hybrid machine..."

GM Is not the only automaker to have hybrids that failed to sell. The list is a long one.

But because of the fanboys, the vitriol gets posted (over and over and over and...) on this thread aimed solely at GM's failure.

Predictable.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 11:28:09 AM

"GM, has steadily been improving and increasing its hybrid technology, first being used in buses back in 2002. Early automotive hybrids, on the Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu have been of the "mild" type -- not too much additional price, and not too much additional mileage. Playing catchup to the Prius and others, it now seems GM is getting in the game to dominate."

Detfan, are you trying to claim this was GM's statetment and not your own?
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detfan
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 11:17:26 AM

Charlie_H, I never promised anything. GM did. I was only repeating what GM was promising at the time. Because what they promised obviously didn't happen, I stopped supporting my own board. I'm not even sure why I clicked on it. But, hey, it gave me chance to respond to misinformation on who promised what.
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Nov 21, 2014 10:47:46 AM

GM's two-mode hybrid sales, part of the hybrid domination that detfan promised us over 6 years ago, amounted to 5.

Toyota, which we expected to be crushed under the wheels of GM's mighty hybrid machine, cranking out new models left and right, retains a market share of 65%. Their nearest US challenger is Ford, which has shown some capability to do things right. GM's share is under 3%, and is made up mostly of their HINOs (Hybrids In Name Only - weak systems that amount to little more than start-stop under ideal conditions and which deliver no significant fuel savings).

In other news, I finally happened to encounter someone who owns a Tahoe hybrid, after all these many years. Turns out he's not a happy camper. What a surprise.
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Nov 9, 2014 11:25:32 PM

12 Per cent greater overall range?

They could pretty much get that by adding another gallon to the gas tank on the existing car.

Vague, indeed.

From the article: "“Greater range (particularly in EV mode), fuel efficiency, and power were the top three requests from owners of 2011-2013 Volt models,” said a report by SAE International citing Larry Nitz, GM’s Executive Director, Transmission and Electrification."

About 1500 people per month buy Volts. If GM makes it more attractive to them... so what? 1500 people per month will buy another Volt? Hooray?

GM must make the car more attractive to the people that didn't buy the original Volt, so as to increase sales. To do that, they have to ask the non-owners what's wrong. Let's start with a lower price, a fifth seat, more cargo room and better CS mode fuel economy. The latter makes the Prius less of a "safe" choice.
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reb4
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Message Posted: Nov 9, 2014 8:22:05 PM

2016 Volt To Have 12-Percent Greater Overall Range



"Probably the single biggest mystery for the 2016 Volt is how much electric range it will get.

That’s still a mystery, but GM told SAE International the completely revised Voltec powertrain will provide 12-percent improved range and energy usage.

All things being equal, that would boost the existing 2015 model’s 380 gas-plus-electric miles to 425 miles but for Volt owners this is far less important than all-electric range.

“Greater range (particularly in EV mode), fuel efficiency, and power were the top three requests from owners of 2011-2013 Volt models,” said a report by SAE International citing Larry Nitz, GM’s Executive Director, Transmission and Electrification.

So, is it reasonable to say if it’s 12 percent overall, and better in EV mode than gas mode, that EV range was boosted by more than 12 percent? Not sure, but if so, a 12-percent increase over 38 miles is 42.5 miles, so “greater” than this means EV range could be 43-plus.

Of course everyone already suspects as much, and guesstimates have been from the high 40s to 50-60 range, but the otherwise vague disclosure of 12 percent is another solid clue, at least."
The speculation continues...

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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Oct 17, 2014 3:38:34 PM

"Should someone now complain about "unsubstantiated opinion?""

Over an answer of a random question asking for an opinion?

Interesting....
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Oct 17, 2014 1:25:19 PM

Weaslespit: "Not that I can see..."

Should someone now complain about "unsubstantiated opinion?"
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Oct 17, 2014 9:00:27 AM

"Is there some reason not to revisit this thread from time to time and re-evalute the original bold prediction?"

Outside of personal gratification? Not that I can see...

"I didn't even participate in detfan's thread, "Why are some import supporters so hateful?" even though he quoted me on a number of occasions."

Well, that discussion focuses more on fanbois than the subject of your true passion... but yet you still follow it. ;)

"Now, did you intend to post some examples of GM dominating this game or are you just planning to complain about other commenters?"

How is my posting that nothing new is being posted complaining? It is a simple statement of fact...

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 10/17/2014 10:02:30 AM EST]
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Oct 16, 2014 8:24:32 AM

Weaslespit: "... why not post it in a thread about Toyota's hybrid program?"

I'm already in 7 active threads. That's plenty.

"For some reason you feel the need to seek out any pro-GM thread ..."

As I'm only in 18 threads, total (11 are inactive), that's clearly inaccurate. I didn't even participate in detfan's thread, "Why are some import supporters so hateful?" even though he quoted me on a number of occasions. Of course, it's not like I was invited to participate.

Is there some reason not to revisit this thread from time to time and re-evalute the original bold prediction?

Now, did you intend to post some examples of GM dominating this game or are you just planning to complain about other commenters?
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 10:35:19 PM

"That's not kicking a dead horse, that's posting a link to a[nother] significant Toyoat hybrid milestone and, by implication, inviting comparison and contrast."

If it isn't kicking the dead horse, why not post it in a thread about Toyota's hybrid program?

Probably because you enjoy kicking the dead horse.

"Rather than complain about other posters, you could post something informative and interesting about GM's hybrid millstones."

If you don't like the idiom used, tough. Whining won't make the comment any less accurate. For some reason you feel the need to seek out any pro-GM thread and do whatever it takes to dispute and tear down any positive data and interject Toyota whenever possible, yet you don't post in Toyota threads nor do you start your own threads to discuss your favorite automaker, such as Toyota's impressive hybrid milestone.

I wonder why that is?

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 10/15/2014 11:40:40 PM EST]
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 4:31:34 PM

That's not kicking a dead horse, that's posting a link to a[nother] significant Toyoat hybrid milestone and, by implication, inviting comparison and contrast.

Rather than complain about other posters, you could post something informative and interesting about GM's hybrid millstones.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Oct 15, 2014 10:59:49 AM

Dead horse - Kicked!
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Oct 14, 2014 2:23:51 PM

Toyota: 7 Million hybrids so far
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2014 1:36:44 PM

Weaslespit: "You're better-off just posting it to his whiteboard if that be the case"

If that was the case, I still wouldn't. He has expressed an intense dislike for me on many occasions. I would say that unsolicited posting to his whiteboard might cause him to fly off the handle. He's taken more than a few dumps on mine, of course, but I'm more of a "live and let live" kind of guy.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2014 1:23:36 PM

"I'm not kicking a dead horse. I'm providing perspective to people who think GM has stolen a march on the rest of the industry in advanced drivetrains."

To whom? detfan? You're better-off just posting it to his whiteboard if that be the case given how little traffic frequents this thread anymore.

So, yes, you are indeed kicking the poor, dead horse.
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2014 12:50:16 PM

I'm not kicking a dead horse. I'm providing perspective to people who think GM has stolen a march on the rest of the industry in advanced drivetrains.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2014 12:49:21 PM

"They have not hit with any of their attempts thus far outside of the Volt"
"What else is there to say?"

Well for one, with the miniscule and falling sales the Volt is experiencing, GM has failed with that vehicle too...
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2014 12:17:04 PM

"It will be interesting watching the progress and gauging the success of each model... Won't it...
By the way, last time I posted on GM hybrid topic .... prior than this was Oct. 3...How about you.... looks like Aug. 11..."

Probably because it is a dead horse that charlie likes to kick every now and again.

GM has failed in the hybrid segment. There is no disputing that. They have not hit with any of their attempts thus far outside of the Volt as most of the products they launched offered too little gain for the premium paid, despite 2 or even 3 iterations.

What else is there to say?
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2014 10:07:52 AM

First, let's congratulate GM for making a move in hybrid sales last month. Sales of the Subaru XV Crosstrek hybrid fell off by over 20% and GM capitalized on that with a 7% increase in Buick Lacrosse hybrids to retake the 15th spot. Well done, GM!

Second, a couple of months ago, I pointed out a review of the Malibu with idle-stop. Weaslespit took some exception to this:

"That was all I needed to read to know that the author wasn't going to like the car and was going to blast it as hard as possible... This is what you rely on for 'evidence'?"

My attention was redirected to that article for other reasons, recently and 'Spit should have read the whole article before dissing it. The mark of a good review is whether or not the author can apply some reasonably objective criteria, comparison and contrasts in evaluating a car. I think Baruth was able to do so.

2015 Chevrolet Malibu Eco LS

To quote from the article:

Most of the time, coming to a halt in the ‘Bu will cause the engine to fall dead and the tach needle to fall to “auto stop”. So far so good and other than a discernible drop in the efficacy of the A/C there’s not much about which you could complain. Release the brakes and the engine immediately spins up and delivers power, and off you go.

No, wait.

That’s how it works in other cars.

In the Malibu it goes WHIRRRRRRRRRRRREEEEEEAAARRRRRRRRGH and the engine reluctantly coughs into life like a freakin’ 1982 Citation Iron Duke and the car briefly shudders with the violence of it and THEN the car moves forward.

---

More:

In what should be perfect weather for this sort of system — eighty degrees and sunny — I had genuine concerns that the Malibu just wouldn’t come back to life at a given stop. Performing left turns across traffic and whatnot were made frightening, so I developed the “Malibu Pokey”:

You put your right foot in
You take your right foot out
It makes the stop-start start up
and run the engine
That’s what it’s all about!

---

And it doesn't hurt if the author is able to inject a little humor into the piece.

It's interesting that this is the kind of car GM develops when it's "getting in the game to dominate." As someone once said, "Yeah, baby!"

[Edited by: Charlie_H at 10/8/2014 11:08:21 AM EST]
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reb4
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2014 8:35:27 AM

" in a stalkery attempt to discredit me through false propaganda and innuendo."

LOL Weasle... you have the flare for the dramatics... don't ya now...As for GM Hybrids....

GM Hybrids.... slim pickings.... EV Spark, Volt, and ELR...

It will be interesting watching the progress and gauging the success of each model... Won't it...
By the way, last time I posted on GM hybrid topic .... prior than this was Oct. 3...How about you.... looks like Aug. 11....


Hmmmmmmmmm

[Edited by: reb4 at 10/8/2014 9:36:54 AM EST]
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2014 7:39:31 AM

Perhaps you should have read more threads where I praise Toyota, Honda, VW, Ford, Hyundai (et al) and criticize GM, rather than a cursory search in a stalkery attempt to discredit me through false propaganda and innuendo. I'm pretty sure I even positively commented on your Prius given the travel stats you posted from your last vacation.

Why not try posting about how you feel about GM hybrids, since that is what this thread is about?

Or are you so utterly fixated on me, all of a sudden? I should be flattered...
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reb4
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Message Posted: Oct 8, 2014 7:35:11 AM

LOL Weaslespit... hardly, just saw how many posts you had to ... just use the links as guidelines suggest... "
3. Back up your arguments with facts. Where possible, facts should be supported by a link to a respected Internet source."I think the proof is overwhelming... But hey, turn around and prove me long with your own links...




""Still not sure how I am a 'fanboi' when I respect product from all manufacturers. But hey, whatever floats your boat.""



as for following you here... LOL... I have this as one of favorite topics. I had hoped gm would provide reasonable competition to fuel efficient vehicles. You as I recall began with thinking the segment was a waste of time... What I was somewhat supprised to find, was the bashing of Toyota... you didn't shy away from the Toyota bashing.... you did have more negative topics on Toyota Bashing than positive for GM / Chevy... I'll admit that...




You are hardly a supporter of all manufacturers.... only D3 .... at least based on your topics started under Weaslespit....



[Edited by: reb4 at 10/8/2014 8:43:08 AM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Oct 7, 2014 9:48:39 PM

So my posting positive articles about a handful of 'actually decent' GM products is evidence to you that I don't respect vehicles from other makes/models?

Oh my... Somebody is behaving strangely, seeking me out in multiple threads in a sad attempt to twist anything I say; more-so than the usual fanboy haters...

I wonder what the motive might be? But then, I guess that would belong in the 'hhhhmmmmmm' thread now, wouldn't it?
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reb4
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Message Posted: Oct 7, 2014 9:40:18 PM

"Still not sure how I am a 'fanboi' when I respect product from all manufacturers. But hey, whatever floats your boat."




What a line that is......




Topic: GM twin SUVs top crash test





Topic: Chevy Cruze Review






Topic: GM Debuts new Buick Regal at LA Auto Show





LOL, should I post the 7 toyota bashing topics????


do you think anyone is going to believe your B.S.?




You work in the auto industry???






SMH....

[Edited by: reb4 at 10/7/2014 10:41:14 PM EST]
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Oct 6, 2014 8:48:04 AM

Weaslespit: "Still not sure how I am a 'fanboi' when I respect product from all manufacturers."

Only a Fellow FanBoi would repost detfan's lameline comparisons. Only a FanBoi would not figure out that $7500 has an influence that $600 can't touch. Only a FanBoi would not figure out that 10 years of market observation is a priceless advantage.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Oct 6, 2014 8:41:30 AM

"You mean like the GM FanBoi did when he started this topic 4 1/2 years ago?"

Both sides have them... That cant be denied.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Oct 4, 2014 12:21:17 PM

"Toyota fanboy world, where crystal ball prediction are 'facts'"

LOL!!

You mean like the GM FanBoi did when he started this topic 4 1/2 years ago? His predictions turned out to be far from "factual" didn't it?
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Oct 3, 2014 11:37:53 AM

"The GM FanBoi world... facts are "hate.""

Toyota fanboy world, where crystal ball prediction are 'facts'...

Still not sure how I am a 'fanboi' when I respect product from all manufacturers. But hey, whatever floats your boat.
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Oct 3, 2014 11:20:58 AM

reb4,

Thank you, yes, that is true. But that segment is much smaller than the pure hybrid segment and GM is losing money in it. And GM trails badly in the pure BEV segment, too.
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reb4
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Message Posted: Oct 3, 2014 10:26:32 AM

Charlie, the GM does have 44.8% of US Market last month for the speical designation "Plug-In Hybrid Cars" that the dashboards has setup...
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Oct 3, 2014 9:43:14 AM

The GM FanBoi world... facts are "hate."

The facts are these... GM has had 17 years to figure out how to compete with Toyota and make money off a mainstream hybrid or advanced tech car and all their biggest "success" to date is the Volt ("we lose money on every one"), of which they managed to sell less than 1400 units last month with a tax credit equal to more than a fifth of it's outrageous MSRP.

The hot air that GM produced when developing it should have been harnessed to heat all the cities of Norway.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Oct 3, 2014 9:33:35 AM

How predictable...

Haters love to hate.
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Oct 3, 2014 9:22:31 AM

After 6 and a half years, how's that "dominate" thing going?

Badly.
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E-Squirrel
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Message Posted: Sep 26, 2014 6:48:39 PM

Other manufacturers are also bringing hybrid models to market, including Porsche. The 2015 Cayenne S will be a plug-in model with a smallish 10.8KWhr lithium ion battery. The electric motor power has also been doubled.

All of this for an MSRP of just $76,400. Of course like Tesla buyers, the "value" of this vehicle isn't cost savings or fuel economy but bragging rights.

2015 Porsche Cayenne S hybrid
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Aug 11, 2014 3:22:07 PM

"Has anybody heard any more details about the engineering behind these predictions since last April?"

No, they are not releasing any information until the NAIAS in Detroit (1/12 - 1/25) where it will make it's debut.
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E-Squirrel
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Message Posted: Aug 11, 2014 2:52:34 PM

From time to time, I do a google search on "GM hybrid vehicle news" or just "hybrid vehicle news", to see what pops up. On GM, the most recent news article that I can find is dated this past April, discussing the revised Volt. Since this is GM's best hybrid offering since this thread started more than six years ago, I was hoping that by now, some "details" beyond the predictions of "5 seats", "a larger battery" and "lower price", or "targeting the Prius V or Ford C-Max" might be available.

Has anybody heard any more details about the engineering behind these predictions since last April?
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2014 1:44:40 PM

"Maybe a little la-la-la-de-dah in the key of G-minor?"

Whatever you like ;)

"They're going to have to build cars that are better than the competition."

Realizing this fact would require you to get out from behind your Truth About Cars website - I won't hold my breath.

You'd be pretty hard-pressed to find poor vehicles these days - the last decade has been a true renaissance for the industry across the board.

But haters gonna hate!
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2014 1:24:22 PM

Charlie_H: "It would be more effective for GM to actually build better cars... I'm not holding my breath for that."

Weaslespit: "No need - they already are."

I doubt that GM is clued in any better than you... For GM to build cars that are merely better than their old lumps is not good enough. They're going to have to build cars that are better than the competition. They should have figured this out decades ago but somehow have not.

Weaslespit (the chorus): " But haters gonna hate..."

Maybe a little la-la-la-de-dah in the key of G-minor?
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Aug 4, 2014 11:41:05 AM

"It would be more effective for GM to actually build better cars... I'm not holding my breath for that."

No need - they already are. But haters gonna hate...
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

Posts:2,560
Points:47,015
Joined:Oct 2008
Message Posted: Aug 4, 2014 11:23:52 AM

Weaslespit: "Haters gonna hate... "

You should set that to music. It would make a great jingle. GM could use it in their advertising to try and shame satisfied Toyota owners into buying their under-achieving cars.

It would be more effective for GM to actually build better cars... I'm not holding my breath for that.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

Posts:17,219
Points:568,325
Joined:Sep 2008
Message Posted: Aug 4, 2014 10:46:46 AM

"No but you will waste time explaining that you won't explain it, which infers that you actually have an explanation and therefore you "win" without having to actually try to explain anything.

But nobody is buying what you're selling."

Haters gonna hate...
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