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Author Topic: Here Come the GM Hybrids!! Back to Topics
detfan

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2008 6:17:11 AM

GM, has steadily been improving and increasing its hybrid technology, first being used in buses back in 2002. Early automotive hybrids, on the Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu have been of the "mild" type -- not too much additional price, and not too much additional mileage. Playing catchup to the Prius and others, it now seems GM is getting in the game to dominate.

Enter the first two-stage hybrids, appropriately being introduced on GM's gas guzzling Tahoe and Yukon. The mileage ratings on these are 50% higher than their standard counterparts giving them the same city mileage as a 4 cyl. mid sized sedan. However, as the link below indicates, like my 2008 Malibu LTZ, the Tahoe tested is getting 25% better mileage than its EPA Ratings, getting 26.3 mpg!!

GM says they will be releasing new hybrids every three or four months, for the next few years. The 2009 Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra will have this same technology. The Saturn Vue will, also, and then also be available as a plug-in hybrid. Its going to be interesting watching the progress and gauging the success of each model.
Chevy Tahoe Two-Stage Hybrid Road Test
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mhradecky
Veteran Author New York

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 2:40:51 PM

Sounds good to me.
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 2:08:58 PM

Not all who were affected by the defect were drunk..

Which is the reason GM is shirking it's responsibility by trying to block the litigation of those who were affected by an admitted safety defect.

"That's right. There are no guarantees in life, one of them being that your air bag might not deploy. You don't get to do something stupid and then blame somebody else for the outcome"

When there is a safety defect, you absolutely can. There are several examples of just that. No reason GM should be exempt...
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 2:03:55 PM

Weaslespit: "GM haters - what does this ignition switch recall have to do with GM hybrids? ;)"

Not much, except Weaslespit seems to like discussing it. For GM FanBois, as bad as the recall situation is, it looks better than the outcome of GM's various hybrid programs.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 2:02:17 PM

Weaslespit: "That's right. There are no guarantees in life, one of them being that your air bag might not deploy. You don't get to do something stupid and then blame somebody else for the outcome."

You don't get to screw up engineering a part of the car that involves the passive occupant protection systems, ignore the problem for several years and skate away with no consequences.

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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 1:56:33 PM

"No, I'm blaming GM for airbags that don't deploy to protect people, drunk sober or otherwise. You seem to think the condition of the driver somehow mitigates GM's failure to provide passive occupant protection systems that actually protect the occupants."

That's right. There are no guarantees in life, one of them being that your air bag might not deploy. You don't get to do something stupid and then blame somebody else for the outcome.

"Weaslespit: "GM haters - what does this ignition switch recall have to do with GM hybrids? ;)"

"Charlie: Not much"

'Nuff said.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 1:52:25 PM

"Not all who were affected by the defect were drunk..."

Exactly. Hence the statement;

"(where many of the drivers made poor choices such as drunk driving...)."
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 1:07:42 PM

" unless you are trying to drag in the pending litigation that GM will probably be protected from (where many of the drivers made poor choices such as drunk driving...)."

Strawman...

Not all who were affected by the defect were drunk...

[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 4/23/2014 2:09:15 PM EST]
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 12:57:34 PM

Weaslespit: "And even with them, people still die in accidents. You really blaming GM for a drunk driver hitting a tree at 55 and dying? Slippery slope, kid."

No, I'm blaming GM for airbags that don't deploy to protect people, drunk sober or otherwise. You seem to think the condition of the driver somehow mitigates GM's failure to provide passive occupant protection systems that actually protect the occupants.

This reminds me of their vaunted OnStar accident notification system. A GM exec was asked if it would still work if the electrical system was damaged during the accident. "Uhhh... maybe not." This is the kind of feature that, in order to be meaningful, should be designed to commercial aircraft black box specs. Fat chance. GM didn't engineer it for that, they engineered it for marketing and the illusion of protection.

Weaslespit: "GM haters - what does this ignition switch recall have to do with GM hybrids? ;)"

Not much, although the early GM non-selling, highly expensive, completely ineffective BAS hybrids might use this part. If you're concerned about the relevance, don't post about it.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 12:36:21 PM

GM haters - what does this ignition switch recall have to do with GM hybrids? ;)

Gotta love fanboys continuing with the status quo...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 12:34:13 PM

"Sure looks likes they are trying to shirk their responsibility to me..."

Read again, then post;

"Strange, since GM is recalling all of these vehicles. They don't seem to be shirking responsibility at all - unless you are trying to drag in the pending litigation that GM will probably be protected from (where many of the drivers made poor choices such as drunk driving...)."
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 12:33:08 PM

"Oh? How often do you buy gas in the Twin Cities?"

Apparently, I am the only one thinking of others... ;)

"That's irrelevant."

Because you say-so. OK... <s>

"No state carries the death penalty for drunk driving"

Strawman.

"and passive restraint systems are supposed to work regardless of the relative responsibility of the occupants."

And even with them, people still die in accidents. You really blaming GM for a drunk driver hitting a tree at 55 and dying? Slippery slope, kid.

It appears you are in support of drunk driving... <s>

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 4/23/2014 1:37:08 PM EST]
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 9:08:31 AM

Weaslespit: "I'd be happier if you just posted some gas prices ;)"

Oh? How often do you buy gas in the Twin Cities?

Weaslespit: "(where many of the drivers made poor choices such as drunk driving...)."

That's irrelevant. No state carries the death penalty for drunk driving and passive restraint systems are supposed to work regardless of the relative responsibility of the occupants.

The fact of the matter is, GM's got a self-inflicted black eye.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 8:58:07 AM

"They don't seem to be shirking responsibility at all"

They aren't?

"Since it began to recall vehicles in February, GM has been hit by dozens of lawsuits on behalf of individuals injured or killed in crashes involving recalled cars, as well as customers who said their vehicles lost value as a result of the company's actions.

The plaintiffs have claimed they bought or leased vehicles that had the defective ignition switch and accused GM of fraudulently concealing its knowledge of the defect, saying that as a result, it was not entitled to protection from liability.

"GM's argument suggests that the U.S. Government would have agreed to extend $40 billion of taxpayer money for GM's restructuring, and supported shielding it from liability through the sale order, had it known of GM's intentional misconduct," the plaintiffs said in their lawsuit.

In its filing, GM asked the court to direct the plaintiffs to cease and desist from further prosecuting against new GM claims that are barred by the bankruptcy sale order and the injunction, and also dismiss the earlier claims."

Sure looks likes they are trying to shirk their responsibility to me...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 8:45:01 AM

"Would you be happier if I created a fresh topic for Volt discussion every month when the bad news comes out?"

I'd be happier if you just posted some gas prices ;)
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 8:40:26 AM

Trying to shirk your responsibilities to the people affected by a defective product, like GM is attempting, is also a problem both from a PR and a moral prospective..."

Strange, since GM is recalling all of these vehicles. They don't seem to be shirking responsibility at all - unless you are trying to drag in the pending litigation that GM will probably be protected from (where many of the drivers made poor choices such as drunk driving...).
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 8:38:24 AM

"Well, every manufacturer tries to save cost."

Of course, but they went extreme - just like Toyota did a few years ago when their reviews from typically pro-Toyota sites started to note cheaper interiors...

"I am sure that when Delphi designed this part, its failing (compared to switches on other vehicles, certainly), was not apparent..."

Certainly. I am not saying that because GM was using its weight to force cost cutting from their supply base (beyond reasonable) that Delphi designed a bad part. The problem I am touching on is what impact the contentious relationship had 'after' the problem was discovered and what, if any, negative influence that may have had on coming to a reasonable fix (and how much of the cost each party would be responsible for).

"And be glad that manufacturers watch costs closely so that you can actually afford more than one car in a lifetime."

Absolutely - but it must be a balanced approach, and this is not what GM had to start the 21st Century.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Apr 23, 2014 8:29:12 AM

"All manufacturers have had recalls. Recalls aren't 'bad'. Failing to recall for a real defect is a problem."

Trying to shirk your responsibilities to the people affected by a defective product, like GM is attempting, is also a problem both from a PR and a moral prospective...
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E-Squirrel
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 9:18:57 PM

Weaslespit writes:

"It is a shame that Delphi and GM were at odds during the time period this switch was developed when the cost accountants were running GM and squeezing their supply base. Many of their cars from this time period show that cost, not quality, was the overriding concern at the time."

Well, every manufacturer tries to save cost. Years ago when I was younger, I remarked, critically in public, that GM figured the cost of items like door handles to five decimal places. An aeronautical engineer from Lockheed overheard me and ended the discussion by saying: 'and if they didn't, you couldn't afford to buy the car.'

He was right actually. If careful cost calculations and tradeoffs aren't made, we couldn't afford them. The trick obviously is to consider the tradeoffs. I am sure that when Delphi designed this part, its failing (compared to switches on other vehicles, certainly), was not apparent; it failed unexpectedly only after being in production and use. If GM had any failing it was in not taking action to rectify the problem more quickly. All manufacturers have had recalls. Recalls aren't 'bad'. Failing to recall for a real defect is a problem. And be glad that manufacturers watch costs closely so that you can actually afford more than one car in a lifetime.
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 9:15:52 AM

Weaslespit: "You [Charlie] bumped a dead thread to gloat, the very thing you despise about GM doing years ago. Period. Nobody had posted anything in this thread for a month... no fanbois, no haters."

It looked like a good time for a summary and what could have been a wrap-up, as GM's latest offering was choking in the market. So, I posted one. I probably should have waited for the topic's 6th birthday, as that would be more fitting.

Would you be happier if I created a fresh topic for Volt discussion every month when the bad news comes out?
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 9:13:51 AM

"They call them "accidents" for a reason."

They call it drunk driving and reckless operation for a reason...

"And, whether or not one is driving recklessly, the air bag is supposed to be there to protect the occupants. That's their purpose."

True, which is why GM is recalling the switch. But these devices (air bags) don't guarantee safety.

"The child is the father of the man. When one looks at the Volt..."

And a return to the status quo of flaming... LOL!
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 9:10:41 AM

Weaslespit: "due to people putting excessive weight on their key ring..."

It's no surprise that GM was building cars so delicate that what people put on their keyrings will disable the vehicles.

Weaslespit: "and then driving recklessly, in some cases."

They call them "accidents" for a reason. And, whether or not one is driving recklessly, the air bag is supposed to be there to protect the occupants. That's their purpose.

Weaslespit: "Many of their cars from this time period show that cost, not quality, was the overriding concern at the time."

The child is the father of the man. When one looks at the Volt, there's no reason to believe there's any real change in the relative priority of cost vs satisfaction - but there may be greater awareness of the risks of getting caught doing something patently unsafe.

Although the Volt is a pretty good idea, GM stuck a completely unsophisticated engine into it, raisint the compression and octane requirement as a last-ditch effort to cheaply maximize what was ultimately bad CS mode fuel economy and didn't do the engineering necessary to minize weight and drag, leaving the door open for the car to be perceived as second-rate in important respects.

New GM will probably be able to dodge most of the legal liabilty for Old GM's actions but it isn't going to look good to the public.

And the Feds aren't impressed with GM. Note the language suggesting that GM is not as responsible and responsive as their peers:

ODI to GM Letter

I expect we'll be hearing more about that.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 9:09:12 AM

"a smart, calculated business decision"

It may have been a "smart, calculated business decision" to ignoring a defect that resulted in lost lives, but to go to court in an attempt to get out of paying for your malfeasance shows how morally bankrupt GM was, and continues to be...



[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 4/22/2014 10:11:09 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 9:05:47 AM

"GM IS, however, paying their obligations in the form of recalling millions of vehicles "

Which Toyota also did. The difference is that Toyota paid restitution to the people who were effected by the supposed defect, and paid a fine, whereas GM is trying to leave the people who were impacted by their negligence to hang in the wind....
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geminijax
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 8:59:17 AM

Weaslespit:

"Again - stick to discussing the topic, rather than trying to drudge-up old drama to make asinine comments about another poster."

Again, did NOT ask for your advice and don't want it. Go give it those who want it. Of course, that's only if such individuals exist.

"Still responding? You must be mad, bro. ;) "
Says the person who keeps dishing out unwanted and useless advice! Hmmm!
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 8:52:39 AM

"At least Toyota paid the fines, and restituition to those harmed. GM is now trying to get out of paying their obligations..."

Off-topic but a smart, calculated business decision. Toyota had no choice but to pay the penalties, FYI.

GM IS, however, paying their obligations in the form of recalling millions of vehicles with an occurrence factor infinitesimally small due to people putting excessive weight on their key ring and then driving recklessly, in some cases.

It is a shame that Delphi and GM were at odds during the time period this switch was developed when the cost accountants were running GM and squeezing their supply base. Many of their cars from this time period show that cost, not quality, was the overriding concern at the time.
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Weaslespit
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 8:47:05 AM

"People with a different opinion are required to keep quiet about this? I don't think so."

Who said that? You bumped a dead thread to gloat, the very thing you despise about GM doing years ago. Period. Nobody had posted anything in this thread for a month... no fanbois, no haters.

Just can't let the flame war go, eh?

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the1roadhog
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 8:00:17 AM

If you like driving a cardboard box, this is your car
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 7:43:18 AM

" "Is this where I am supposed to rehash the SUA again that Toyota hid and had to pay fines over?"

At least Toyota paid the fines, and restituition to those harmed. GM is now trying to get out of paying their obligations...
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 4:01:57 PM

Weaslespit: "As has already been discussed and agreed upon, at least as far as my comments go..."

Some GM FanBois have never lost the swagger. Nor, so far as I can tell, has GM. They're still talking up the Volt, which continues to languish, the ELR, which has hit the market with a dull thud and are now talking about Volt 2.

Others here on GB were recently told they should not be "fooled" by the Volt's current sales numbers. That's hardly waving the white flag. Not to mention the recurrent lameline comparisons.

In the context of the current market and supported by unprecedented Federal money, the Volt is a dismal failure. Yet, a poster comes along telling a different and entirely bogus story. People with a different opinion are required to keep quiet about this? I don't think so.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 3:54:15 PM

Weaslespit: "Is this where I am supposed to rehash the SUA again that Toyota hid and had to pay fines over?"

Go for it. Although that might do better in a separate thread.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 3:44:16 PM

"This post is waayyy obsolete!"

Yes it is. GM's hybrids have failed outside of the Volt thus far. Not many have succeeded in the segment...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 3:42:25 PM

"The only thing that's well and truly dead are GM's hybrids. Remarking on that isn't a crime."

Can't let it go, like I said. Is this where I am supposed to rehash the SUA again that Toyota hid and had to pay fines over?

I note this was completely ignored;

"As has already been discussed and agreed upon, at least as far as my comments go..."

Flame-on, fanboys...

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 4/21/2014 4:43:13 PM EST]
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brandon6452
Rookie Author Minnesota

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 3:00:15 PM

This post is waayyy obsolete!
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Nakomo
Rookie Author Maryland

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 1:50:07 PM

.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 1:17:11 PM

Weaslespit: "You mean the bumping of a dead thread?"

The only thing that's well and truly dead are GM's hybrids. Remarking on that isn't a crime. When GM finally pulls the plug on all of them... or wins... the thread will either die or change. As it is, GM is getting ready for Volt 2, in two new flavors (or so they are hinting). We'll certainly want to cover those developments.

Well, I will. GM FanBois... maybe not so much.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 12:56:15 PM

"Of course, you complain when we stick to the topic, too."

You mean the bumping of a dead thread?

"On this topice, the news for GM is almost universally not good and such observations don't seem welcome."

As has already been discussed and agreed upon, at least as far as my comments go...

But you can't let this thread go.

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 4/21/2014 1:57:34 PM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 12:55:28 PM

"Then let it go."

I did; I wasn't the one who brought detfan's history back up yet again for a third go-around as the sole point of a post - I am simply telling others (gemini) to do the same, and reminding 'them' that 'they' should not be casting the first stone... especially when said post is 100% off-topic.

This is a simple point that does not require an emotional outburst - but I suspect some people can't let it go as I have advised.
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contiki
Champion Author Ontario

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 12:52:46 PM

Nothing ever NEW on this thread....same old arguments with no ever seeing how dull this thread has become...

Same posters are trying to keep it alive............now if it had something good to offer than that would be different for sure.... beside a platform for some posters.............

It should have died a long time ago............



[Edited by: contiki at 4/21/2014 1:56:06 PM EST]
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 12:47:48 PM

Weaslespit: "Again - stick to discussing the topic, rather than trying to drudge-up old drama to make asinine comments about another poster."

Of course, you complain when we stick to the topic, too. On this topice, the news for GM is almost universally not good and such observations don't seem welcome.

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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 12:45:50 PM

reb4,

As luck would have it, I saw a Tahoe hybrid (complete with giant H-Y-B-R-I-D sticker) late last week. I don't think I had seen one for years. It was some sort of fleet vehicle.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 12:43:30 PM

Weaslespit,

Then let it go.

However, my 4/15 0805 is about a contemporary event.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 10:55:00 AM

"Hence, your reference to 18 month old posts on your whiteboard?"

Exactly - Time to let it go...
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 10:52:52 AM

Weaslespit: "Gotta love people who just wanna re-hash old drama and can't stay on topic ;"

Hence, your reference to 18 month old posts on your whiteboard?
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 10:31:45 AM

"I didn't ask for your advice and I don't want it. Keep it to yourself. Re what I choose to comment on, is none of your business. Do yourself a favor and remember that!"

Again - stick to discussing the topic, rather than trying to drudge-up old drama to make asinine comments about another poster.

"LOL Weaslespit! The contents of your post border on the asinine side."

Still responding? You must be mad, bro. ;)
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geminijax
Champion Author Jacksonville

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 9:46:44 AM

LOL Weaslespit! The contents of your post border on the asinine side.

"Again - 'Do yourself a favor and don't comment on him at all, if you aren't going to comment on his topic-related posts...' ;)"

I didn't ask for your advice and I don't want it. Keep it to yourself. Re what I choose to comment on, is none of your business. Do yourself a favor and remember that!
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 8:00:17 AM

"Oh, fer cryin' out loud."

That's what I thought too... Gotta love people who just wanna re-hash old drama and can't stay on topic ;)
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 7:59:13 AM

"Ever wonder why?"

Nope.

"Weaslespit, you are one of the posters who frequently makes personal comments, usually quite puerile, against other posters. That's something you do have in common with detfan."

Hello Pot :)

"Really? So post whatever is on your WB that you think makes me a hypocrite."

You're a big boy, you can look for your own puerile comments.

"May I remind you that I (nor anyone else here) needs your permission NOR approval to discuss something that may or may not have been discussed before? Note I did NOT ask for your approval. So, your opinion here means exactly zero to me."

You mad bro? LOL

Again - 'Do yourself a favor and don't comment on him at all, if you aren't going to comment on his topic-related posts...' ;)

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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 20, 2014 8:23:27 PM

Weaslespit: "Not to mention that my whiteboard declares you ineligible to cast the first stone here, lest ye be known as a hypocrite..."

Oh, fer cryin' out loud. Yeah, there was discussion on your whiteboard a while back but the guests there behaved themselves. I don't know anybody but detfan who chases people into their whiteboards.

The interaction with davisadm was classic detfan. davisadm posted just once on a topic, so even though there was no indication that davisadm intended to have a prolonged and personal discussion on this subject, detfan took his GM re-education camp to davisadm's whiteboard. And detfan goes bonkers on other whiteboards, too.

The way he comes off leads the passers-by (e.g., davisadm) to think that detfan is a GM plant.

That's not my problem, it's not geminijax's problem, it's not contiki's problem... it's detfan's problem.

[Edited by: Charlie_H at 4/20/2014 9:23:53 PM EST]
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geminijax
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Message Posted: Apr 19, 2014 10:41:39 PM

Weaslespit:
"As is this cheap shot regarding something already discussed"

Now that is a cheap shot! May I remind you that I (nor anyone else here) needs your permission NOR approval to discuss something that may or may not have been discussed before? Note I did NOT ask for your approval. So, your opinion here means exactly zero to me.

Have you noticed I usually don't bother responding to your posts? Ever wonder why?

" Not to mention that my whiteboard declares you ineligible to cast the first stone here, lest ye be known as a hypocrite"
Really? So post whatever is on your WB that you think makes me a hypocrite.

Weaslespit, you are one of the posters who frequently makes personal comments, usually quite puerile, against other posters. That's something you do have in common with detfan.

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reb4
Champion Author Chicago

Posts:22,100
Points:2,158,795
Joined:Sep 2004
Message Posted: Apr 19, 2014 3:18:13 PM

Saw another Tahoe Hybrid yesterday....

Quite a few sightings for me lately....
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