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Author Topic: Here Come the GM Hybrids!! Back to Topics
detfan

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Message Posted: Feb 21, 2008 6:17:11 AM

GM, has steadily been improving and increasing its hybrid technology, first being used in buses back in 2002. Early automotive hybrids, on the Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu have been of the "mild" type -- not too much additional price, and not too much additional mileage. Playing catchup to the Prius and others, it now seems GM is getting in the game to dominate.

Enter the first two-stage hybrids, appropriately being introduced on GM's gas guzzling Tahoe and Yukon. The mileage ratings on these are 50% higher than their standard counterparts giving them the same city mileage as a 4 cyl. mid sized sedan. However, as the link below indicates, like my 2008 Malibu LTZ, the Tahoe tested is getting 25% better mileage than its EPA Ratings, getting 26.3 mpg!!

GM says they will be releasing new hybrids every three or four months, for the next few years. The 2009 Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra will have this same technology. The Saturn Vue will, also, and then also be available as a plug-in hybrid. Its going to be interesting watching the progress and gauging the success of each model.
Chevy Tahoe Two-Stage Hybrid Road Test
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E-Squirrel
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 9:18:57 PM

Weaslespit writes:

"It is a shame that Delphi and GM were at odds during the time period this switch was developed when the cost accountants were running GM and squeezing their supply base. Many of their cars from this time period show that cost, not quality, was the overriding concern at the time."

Well, every manufacturer tries to save cost. Years ago when I was younger, I remarked, critically in public, that GM figured the cost of items like door handles to five decimal places. An aeronautical engineer from Lockheed overheard me and ended the discussion by saying: 'and if they didn't, you couldn't afford to buy the car.'

He was right actually. If careful cost calculations and tradeoffs aren't made, we couldn't afford them. The trick obviously is to consider the tradeoffs. I am sure that when Delphi designed this part, its failing (compared to switches on other vehicles, certainly), was not apparent; it failed unexpectedly only after being in production and use. If GM had any failing it was in not taking action to rectify the problem more quickly. All manufacturers have had recalls. Recalls aren't 'bad'. Failing to recall for a real defect is a problem. And be glad that manufacturers watch costs closely so that you can actually afford more than one car in a lifetime.
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Charlie_H
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 9:15:52 AM

Weaslespit: "You [Charlie] bumped a dead thread to gloat, the very thing you despise about GM doing years ago. Period. Nobody had posted anything in this thread for a month... no fanbois, no haters."

It looked like a good time for a summary and what could have been a wrap-up, as GM's latest offering was choking in the market. So, I posted one. I probably should have waited for the topic's 6th birthday, as that would be more fitting.

Would you be happier if I created a fresh topic for Volt discussion every month when the bad news comes out?
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 9:13:51 AM

"They call them "accidents" for a reason."

They call it drunk driving and reckless operation for a reason...

"And, whether or not one is driving recklessly, the air bag is supposed to be there to protect the occupants. That's their purpose."

True, which is why GM is recalling the switch. But these devices (air bags) don't guarantee safety.

"The child is the father of the man. When one looks at the Volt..."

And a return to the status quo of flaming... LOL!
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 9:10:41 AM

Weaslespit: "due to people putting excessive weight on their key ring..."

It's no surprise that GM was building cars so delicate that what people put on their keyrings will disable the vehicles.

Weaslespit: "and then driving recklessly, in some cases."

They call them "accidents" for a reason. And, whether or not one is driving recklessly, the air bag is supposed to be there to protect the occupants. That's their purpose.

Weaslespit: "Many of their cars from this time period show that cost, not quality, was the overriding concern at the time."

The child is the father of the man. When one looks at the Volt, there's no reason to believe there's any real change in the relative priority of cost vs satisfaction - but there may be greater awareness of the risks of getting caught doing something patently unsafe.

Although the Volt is a pretty good idea, GM stuck a completely unsophisticated engine into it, raisint the compression and octane requirement as a last-ditch effort to cheaply maximize what was ultimately bad CS mode fuel economy and didn't do the engineering necessary to minize weight and drag, leaving the door open for the car to be perceived as second-rate in important respects.

New GM will probably be able to dodge most of the legal liabilty for Old GM's actions but it isn't going to look good to the public.

And the Feds aren't impressed with GM. Note the language suggesting that GM is not as responsible and responsive as their peers:

ODI to GM Letter

I expect we'll be hearing more about that.
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Shockjock1961
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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 9:09:12 AM

"a smart, calculated business decision"

It may have been a "smart, calculated business decision" to ignoring a defect that resulted in lost lives, but to go to court in an attempt to get out of paying for your malfeasance shows how morally bankrupt GM was, and continues to be...



[Edited by: Shockjock1961 at 4/22/2014 10:11:09 AM EST]
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 9:05:47 AM

"GM IS, however, paying their obligations in the form of recalling millions of vehicles "

Which Toyota also did. The difference is that Toyota paid restitution to the people who were effected by the supposed defect, and paid a fine, whereas GM is trying to leave the people who were impacted by their negligence to hang in the wind....
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geminijax
Champion Author Jacksonville

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 8:59:17 AM

Weaslespit:

"Again - stick to discussing the topic, rather than trying to drudge-up old drama to make asinine comments about another poster."

Again, did NOT ask for your advice and don't want it. Go give it those who want it. Of course, that's only if such individuals exist.

"Still responding? You must be mad, bro. ;) "
Says the person who keeps dishing out unwanted and useless advice! Hmmm!
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 8:52:39 AM

"At least Toyota paid the fines, and restituition to those harmed. GM is now trying to get out of paying their obligations..."

Off-topic but a smart, calculated business decision. Toyota had no choice but to pay the penalties, FYI.

GM IS, however, paying their obligations in the form of recalling millions of vehicles with an occurrence factor infinitesimally small due to people putting excessive weight on their key ring and then driving recklessly, in some cases.

It is a shame that Delphi and GM were at odds during the time period this switch was developed when the cost accountants were running GM and squeezing their supply base. Many of their cars from this time period show that cost, not quality, was the overriding concern at the time.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 8:47:05 AM

"People with a different opinion are required to keep quiet about this? I don't think so."

Who said that? You bumped a dead thread to gloat, the very thing you despise about GM doing years ago. Period. Nobody had posted anything in this thread for a month... no fanbois, no haters.

Just can't let the flame war go, eh?

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the1roadhog
Champion Author Atlanta

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 8:00:17 AM

If you like driving a cardboard box, this is your car
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Shockjock1961
Champion Author Illinois

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Message Posted: Apr 22, 2014 7:43:18 AM

" "Is this where I am supposed to rehash the SUA again that Toyota hid and had to pay fines over?"

At least Toyota paid the fines, and restituition to those harmed. GM is now trying to get out of paying their obligations...
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 4:01:57 PM

Weaslespit: "As has already been discussed and agreed upon, at least as far as my comments go..."

Some GM FanBois have never lost the swagger. Nor, so far as I can tell, has GM. They're still talking up the Volt, which continues to languish, the ELR, which has hit the market with a dull thud and are now talking about Volt 2.

Others here on GB were recently told they should not be "fooled" by the Volt's current sales numbers. That's hardly waving the white flag. Not to mention the recurrent lameline comparisons.

In the context of the current market and supported by unprecedented Federal money, the Volt is a dismal failure. Yet, a poster comes along telling a different and entirely bogus story. People with a different opinion are required to keep quiet about this? I don't think so.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 3:54:15 PM

Weaslespit: "Is this where I am supposed to rehash the SUA again that Toyota hid and had to pay fines over?"

Go for it. Although that might do better in a separate thread.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 3:44:16 PM

"This post is waayyy obsolete!"

Yes it is. GM's hybrids have failed outside of the Volt thus far. Not many have succeeded in the segment...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 3:42:25 PM

"The only thing that's well and truly dead are GM's hybrids. Remarking on that isn't a crime."

Can't let it go, like I said. Is this where I am supposed to rehash the SUA again that Toyota hid and had to pay fines over?

I note this was completely ignored;

"As has already been discussed and agreed upon, at least as far as my comments go..."

Flame-on, fanboys...

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 4/21/2014 4:43:13 PM EST]
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brandon6452
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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 3:00:15 PM

This post is waayyy obsolete!
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Nakomo
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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 1:50:07 PM

.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 1:17:11 PM

Weaslespit: "You mean the bumping of a dead thread?"

The only thing that's well and truly dead are GM's hybrids. Remarking on that isn't a crime. When GM finally pulls the plug on all of them... or wins... the thread will either die or change. As it is, GM is getting ready for Volt 2, in two new flavors (or so they are hinting). We'll certainly want to cover those developments.

Well, I will. GM FanBois... maybe not so much.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 12:56:15 PM

"Of course, you complain when we stick to the topic, too."

You mean the bumping of a dead thread?

"On this topice, the news for GM is almost universally not good and such observations don't seem welcome."

As has already been discussed and agreed upon, at least as far as my comments go...

But you can't let this thread go.

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 4/21/2014 1:57:34 PM EST]
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 12:55:28 PM

"Then let it go."

I did; I wasn't the one who brought detfan's history back up yet again for a third go-around as the sole point of a post - I am simply telling others (gemini) to do the same, and reminding 'them' that 'they' should not be casting the first stone... especially when said post is 100% off-topic.

This is a simple point that does not require an emotional outburst - but I suspect some people can't let it go as I have advised.
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contiki
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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 12:52:46 PM

Nothing ever NEW on this thread....same old arguments with no ever seeing how dull this thread has become...

Same posters are trying to keep it alive............now if it had something good to offer than that would be different for sure.... beside a platform for some posters.............

It should have died a long time ago............



[Edited by: contiki at 4/21/2014 1:56:06 PM EST]
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 12:47:48 PM

Weaslespit: "Again - stick to discussing the topic, rather than trying to drudge-up old drama to make asinine comments about another poster."

Of course, you complain when we stick to the topic, too. On this topice, the news for GM is almost universally not good and such observations don't seem welcome.

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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 12:45:50 PM

reb4,

As luck would have it, I saw a Tahoe hybrid (complete with giant H-Y-B-R-I-D sticker) late last week. I don't think I had seen one for years. It was some sort of fleet vehicle.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 12:43:30 PM

Weaslespit,

Then let it go.

However, my 4/15 0805 is about a contemporary event.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 10:55:00 AM

"Hence, your reference to 18 month old posts on your whiteboard?"

Exactly - Time to let it go...
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 10:52:52 AM

Weaslespit: "Gotta love people who just wanna re-hash old drama and can't stay on topic ;"

Hence, your reference to 18 month old posts on your whiteboard?
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 10:31:45 AM

"I didn't ask for your advice and I don't want it. Keep it to yourself. Re what I choose to comment on, is none of your business. Do yourself a favor and remember that!"

Again - stick to discussing the topic, rather than trying to drudge-up old drama to make asinine comments about another poster.

"LOL Weaslespit! The contents of your post border on the asinine side."

Still responding? You must be mad, bro. ;)
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geminijax
Champion Author Jacksonville

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 9:46:44 AM

LOL Weaslespit! The contents of your post border on the asinine side.

"Again - 'Do yourself a favor and don't comment on him at all, if you aren't going to comment on his topic-related posts...' ;)"

I didn't ask for your advice and I don't want it. Keep it to yourself. Re what I choose to comment on, is none of your business. Do yourself a favor and remember that!
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 8:00:17 AM

"Oh, fer cryin' out loud."

That's what I thought too... Gotta love people who just wanna re-hash old drama and can't stay on topic ;)
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 21, 2014 7:59:13 AM

"Ever wonder why?"

Nope.

"Weaslespit, you are one of the posters who frequently makes personal comments, usually quite puerile, against other posters. That's something you do have in common with detfan."

Hello Pot :)

"Really? So post whatever is on your WB that you think makes me a hypocrite."

You're a big boy, you can look for your own puerile comments.

"May I remind you that I (nor anyone else here) needs your permission NOR approval to discuss something that may or may not have been discussed before? Note I did NOT ask for your approval. So, your opinion here means exactly zero to me."

You mad bro? LOL

Again - 'Do yourself a favor and don't comment on him at all, if you aren't going to comment on his topic-related posts...' ;)

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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 20, 2014 8:23:27 PM

Weaslespit: "Not to mention that my whiteboard declares you ineligible to cast the first stone here, lest ye be known as a hypocrite..."

Oh, fer cryin' out loud. Yeah, there was discussion on your whiteboard a while back but the guests there behaved themselves. I don't know anybody but detfan who chases people into their whiteboards.

The interaction with davisadm was classic detfan. davisadm posted just once on a topic, so even though there was no indication that davisadm intended to have a prolonged and personal discussion on this subject, detfan took his GM re-education camp to davisadm's whiteboard. And detfan goes bonkers on other whiteboards, too.

The way he comes off leads the passers-by (e.g., davisadm) to think that detfan is a GM plant.

That's not my problem, it's not geminijax's problem, it's not contiki's problem... it's detfan's problem.

[Edited by: Charlie_H at 4/20/2014 9:23:53 PM EST]
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geminijax
Champion Author Jacksonville

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Message Posted: Apr 19, 2014 10:41:39 PM

Weaslespit:
"As is this cheap shot regarding something already discussed"

Now that is a cheap shot! May I remind you that I (nor anyone else here) needs your permission NOR approval to discuss something that may or may not have been discussed before? Note I did NOT ask for your approval. So, your opinion here means exactly zero to me.

Have you noticed I usually don't bother responding to your posts? Ever wonder why?

" Not to mention that my whiteboard declares you ineligible to cast the first stone here, lest ye be known as a hypocrite"
Really? So post whatever is on your WB that you think makes me a hypocrite.

Weaslespit, you are one of the posters who frequently makes personal comments, usually quite puerile, against other posters. That's something you do have in common with detfan.

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reb4
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Message Posted: Apr 19, 2014 3:18:13 PM

Saw another Tahoe Hybrid yesterday....

Quite a few sightings for me lately....
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 19, 2014 9:59:17 AM

"Since then, I decided not to respond to anything he posts.

Frankly, that was very childish and immature, IMHO!"

As is this cheap shot regarding something already discussed and then re-hashed ad naseaum from 2012. Not to mention that my whiteboard declares you ineligible to cast the first stone here, lest ye be known as a hypocrite... Do yourself a favor and don't comment on him at all, if you aren't going to comment on his topic-related posts...

"So true...............sad but true............"

Says the Honda minion.

"detfan, on the other hand, has started a couple of threads lauding GM's technological prowess, can be relied on to pump their products and has the habit of pursuing people out of the forum and dropping GM propaganda and, sometimes, rants on their whiteboards. If GM is paying detfan, they're certainly getting their money's worth."

Says the Toyota fanboy. See the trend here? It rhymes with 'blame-war'...

[Edited by: Weaslespit at 4/19/2014 11:00:54 AM EST]
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contiki
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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2014 8:39:02 AM

Charlie_H says " If GM is paying detfan, they're certainly getting their money's worth."

So true...............sad but true............
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geminijax
Champion Author Jacksonville

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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2014 8:33:35 AM

LOL Charlie! I can attest to detfan's habit of dumping on others' whiteboards. He did on mine. It wasn't as much propaganda as it was hateful rants. Since then, I decided not to respond to anything he posts.

Frankly, that was very childish and immature, IMHO!
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2014 8:05:41 AM

rumblesat: "Or, maybe davisadm is a Toyota plant? Yeah, that must be it."

Doubtful. davisadm posted here just once and then detfan dumped propaganda on davisadm's whiteboard, which drew him back. Since then, he's been quiet.

detfan, on the other hand, has started a couple of threads lauding GM's technological prowess, can be relied on to pump their products and has the habit of pursuing people out of the forum and dropping GM propaganda and, sometimes, rants on their whiteboards. If GM is paying detfan, they're certainly getting their money's worth.


[Edited by: Charlie_H at 4/15/2014 9:06:46 AM EST]
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reb4
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2014 7:29:53 AM

" the giant H-Y-B-R-I-D sticker on the side? A popular question on various forums when these first came out was, "How do I remove that sticker?""

Actually that distinction of the giant plaque was from the Cadilac version. I saw it one day and I could not believe the size of it... It actually was quite a site and no one could mistake it was a Hybrid...

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rumbleseat
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Message Posted: Apr 15, 2014 12:03:16 AM

davisadm days: "detfan must be a GM plant."

This is just as odious as the ones accusing members of being paid by the ethanol industry to post anti-oil posts, and the ones accusing members of being paid by Big Oil to post anti-ethanol posts.
Think about it, GM would create a member to plant in little old GasBuddy? That is ludicrous.
Or, maybe davisadm is a Toyota plant? Yeah, that must be it.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2014 11:33:45 PM

"Actually she noticed the Hybrid Plaque at the same time I did..."

One of the tasteful little badges or did it still have the giant H-Y-B-R-I-D sticker on the side? A popular question on various forums when these first came out was, "How do I remove that sticker?"

One review I read said they counted 13 hybrid badges on or in the vehicle. I can only think of 3 on my Prius, unless you count the blue-tinted T on the nose and the "Hybrid Status Indicator" message on the dash display.
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reb4
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2014 8:21:26 PM

"You should have taken a picture, that is a rare bird indeed..."

I would have, but I was driving down in Florida with my significant other... and she gets violent when I use my phone while driving... Actually she noticed the Hybrid Plaque at the same time I did...
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2014 3:51:52 PM

weaslespit: "Exactly - you only provide data that supports your position. I couldn't have said it better myself."

Except, I didn't say, "only."

Now, if you object to my numbers, feel free to dig up your own and explain why they're more significant, important or relevant.

However, if it's your position that certain GM vehicles which I have criticized are "successes," reality isn't your friend.
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2014 12:18:41 PM

"The fact is, I provide numbers that support my position."

Exactly - you only provide data that supports your position. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Unfortunately reality is as convenient as that...
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Weaslespit
Champion Author Cincinnati

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Message Posted: Apr 14, 2014 12:17:42 PM

"Speaking of GM hybrids ... Saw one of the large hybrid SUV's (Tahoe) on road trip from Florida."

You should have taken a picture, that is a rare bird indeed...
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reb4
Champion Author Chicago

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Message Posted: Apr 12, 2014 4:55:51 PM

Speaking of GM hybrids ... Saw one of the large hybrid SUV's (Tahoe) on road trip from Florida.

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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 11, 2014 11:00:47 AM

detfan: "The fact is, you [Charlie] are wrong, and I am right, and nothing in your creative journalism changes that."

The fact is, I provide numbers that support my position. The Cruze diesel take rate is miniscule and the high cost of diesel makes any kind of payback uncertain and not at all quick. If GM provides this engine for meaningless bragging rights ("We have a diesel where [other car co] doesn't"), then they are meeting expectations. If there's a business plan to actually sell these things, then it's a bad plan.

The Chevy Volt is uncompetitive. The Leaf outsells it, it has gained little traction outside the US, it makes Corvette-like quantities even with a mind-bending tax credit and, as a bonus, GM loses money on every one. These are facts. Almost 50% are registered in CA, where HOV access, thought to be worth as much as $10K, is also available for the Volt. The extra $5K barely places it ahead of the Prius PHV (which Weaslespit will be delighted to point out is no great shakes, either) and the combined sales of the Energi cars. In key measures, (seating, CS mode fuel economy), it's an also-ran but a relatively expensive one. FACTS.

detfan: "Not with this makeup of GB posters. "

If you believe this, then you should ask yourself why so many Americans do not care for GM.

davisadm,

Thanks for passing that along.

detfan: "Don't let the drop in Volt sales fool you."

It's not fooling us, detfan, you're fooling yourself. Sales have dropped off in spite of GM's $5K price decrease. This is not good.

detfan: "When GM does there special lease again later this Spring you will see sales up again."

You should ask yourself, why does a car with a minimum of $7500 in tax and other public benefits need a special lease deal to get it up in sales?

detfan: "The next gen Volt is getting closer, too, with higher electric range, lower price, 5th seat, and higher mileage using the gas generator.

It's still over a year away, both the next-generation Prius and Toyota's new FCV will beat it to market. But it's nice to know the G2 Volt will finally have features the G1 should have had.

detfan: "comparative global sales through 4 years is Voltec at 66,690 in sales and Prius at 52,230"

1997 called again... I'm getting tired of them asking where all the Volts are. Can I give them your number?

detfan: "toxic posters"

detfan's secret code word for "realists."

detfan: "so I will probably vacate again"

Do you promise?
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davisadm
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Message Posted: Apr 11, 2014 9:56:34 AM

detfan must be a GM plant. He can't stop defending the Volt! After my post yesterday, I received a post on my whiteboard from detfan:
"Thanks for your post on the GM hybrid Board. Don't let the drop in Volt sales fool you. When GM does there special lease again later this Spring you will see sales up again. The Volt is outselling the Prius so far at the same stage in global sales, which is encouraging, since there is so much competition now.(comparative global sales through 4 years is Voltec at 66,690 in sales and Prius at 52,230) The next gen Volt is getting closer, too, with higher electric range, lower price, 5th seat, and higher mileage using the gas generator. The PHEV is certainly a very small segment, but within the segment, the Chevy Volt is the leader in sales and electric range so far. Unless electric gets displaced by hydrogen fuel cells, I believe GM will keep their Voltec technology ahead of the competition. However, since coming back to that thread I see there are still some toxic posters there, so I will probably vacate again, and just ask GB to close it. I wish I could find a thread that enthusia"
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detfan
Champion Author Tallahassee

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Message Posted: Apr 11, 2014 9:24:31 AM

CharlieH, the continuing contrarian. The fact is, you are wrong, and I am right, and nothing in your creative journalism changes that.

You know Contiki is right. This is nothing but a toxic board. Since nothing has changed, I am going to ask GB just to close this board.

It is impossible for GM enthusiasts to communicate here(or anywhere, really) without the import elite showing up and stirring the pot.

Maybe GM fans go to import threads and do the same thing, but I don't. I just want a small group of gas Buddy's with similar interests in GM to have a place to post in peace. Never going to happen. Not with this makeup of GB posters.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 11, 2014 8:09:27 AM

And, of course, to support your original post, we'd like to see how GM's hybrid programs are "dominating" anything. It has been over six years since we were promised GM would be "dominating" the hybrid market.

Commanding market share would certainly be persuasive evidence.

For your information, this is what "dominate" looks like.
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Charlie_H
Champion Author Twin Cities

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Message Posted: Apr 11, 2014 8:06:09 AM

detfan: "Cruze Diesel is competitive."

The market says it isn't. See previous note on take rate. Compare it to WV's.

detfan: "The Chevy Volt is competitive, and playing on the same tax credit playing field as everyone else."

Wrong. The Chevy Volt, with its $35K sticker price is uncompetitive. The Chevy Volt, aided by $7500 and up in federal and local incentive, often with an additional $2-5K in GM's own incentives is marginally competitive to the tune of 1500/month so far this year.

And more wrong. It plays by the same rules but the Volt was engineered to grab maximum Federal incentive cash and gets $5K more than a Prius PHV (which is outsold by the Volt by a mere 26 units with a 35 state availability deficit) and significantly more than a Ford Energi product.

You may fan on, FanBoi, but these are *facts*.

If you feel like disputing anything, I recommend you bring *facts* that support what you say. Good luck with that.
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